Poison Ivy League Education

September 24, 2007 at 1:50 pm (POLITICS)

I ran out of toilet paper today, but luckily a neighbor of mine had a college degree from Columbia University.

Poison Ivy League Education is now upon us.

http://www.tygrrrrexpress.com/2007/09/poison-ivy-league-education/

   

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52 Comments

  1. laree said,

    Eric,

    I agree if they don’t have the personal courage to stand up to Move on or Daily Kos, how can they stand up to the people plotting our distruction? They won’t, they will do their best, to appease these power hungry nationalist i.e. Iran. This is what they tried to do with Hitler, appeasement. Those who don’t learn from history are doomed to relive it. I think the new school colors for Columbia University, should be “Pink” to match their politics, yes I expect these colors will run. The President of Iran, got what he came for propaganda, Thanks to Columbia University, who put their politics, before their Country.

  2. laree said,

  3. micky2 said,

    I was hoping someone would be in the school book depository.
    Its not too late.
    Theres always the grassy knoll

  4. Jersey McJones said,

    It’s sad to see the level of vitriol aimed at Columbia. Bollinger’s opening remarks, made to appease the nay-sayers, where inappropriate, and obviously did nothing to assuage conservatives. It was a very interesting, informative and useful event. There’s an old Arab saying: Keep your friends close and your enemies closer. It’s sage advice. We need to keep a dialogue with the likes of Ahmedinejad, lest we make fatal mistakes in dealing with them in the future. Iraq and Afghanistan should have taught us at least that by now. Know thy enemy. And know this – the Iranian people are not our enemy.

    Ahmedinejad is the president of a large Second World south Asian nation. Say what you want about him and the way he thinks, but he is a product of that nation, that culture, and the history of that region. He’s certainly a controversial figure (his popularity numbers in Iran are simlar to Bush’s and the congress’ here). But the things he says are expressions of common thought in that part of the world. Comments like ‘we have no homosexuals in Iran’ or ‘why should the Palestinians have to pay for what the Europeans did?,” reflect the sensibilities of many people in the Middle East. Rush Limbaugh made his fame on this same sort of speech – he said things many people thought but couldn’t say in polite society. Now, Limbaugh’s style of discourse is mainstream American, an industry unto itself. Just ask Rupert Murdoch, or for that matter Michelle Malkin. People like me might not like what the Limbaughs and Ahmedinejads of the world have to say, but I’m glad to have the freedom to hear it. I want to know what these people think and say, and why and how they say these things, and why and how they say them.

    I hope what we learn from this is that dialogue, debate, discourse, discussion and dissent are what makes American and the West great. These five D’s are what seperates us from tyrannies. Should we lower ourselves to the closed communication of dictators, we become a dictatorship. A huge portion of the Iranian population is young, very young. In the future it may be possible for the great shining hope of the Middle East to indeed be Iran. We showed the president of Iran what a free, open society looks and feels like. Let’s hope he learned as much from us as we did from him. And let’s hope those young people in Iran got a glimpse of it too.

    JMJ

  5. Cassie said,

    You are so right Eric. I have no idea what these idiots were thinking.
    I do realize that with people like these in Universities we don’t need any more enemies.
    I wanted him to answer about 1979, whether he had anything to do with the crisis.
    But liberals would not want that answered either.
    By inviting him to Columbia they slapped our Troops in the face, our Veterans in the face, the hostages & their families. Could it get any worse.
    Worthless college? OH YES.

  6. micky2 said,

    We should invite OBL also.
    We need to bridge the lack of understanding in both sides.
    And while we’re at it , we should bring in Kim Jong, the leaders of Hamas and Hizbul Mujahideen and Hezbolla.
    If we could actually get all of us together and exchange ideas on how to solve our differences this would be a start in the right direction of discounting the myths that constantly persecute these men to the point that they wont go anywhere without massive amounts of security.
    I would like it we could bring the situation to a point where none of them feel such a need to be in hiding or always have twenty armed gaurds around them constantly.
    The myths and lies need to be extiguished so these men can come out in the open making it so much easier to rip their heads off and crap down their necks

  7. NJ GOP said,

    Oh Pleeeeeze Jersey get a life. You are only condoning what this guy said because you think it’s cool to do so. The guy is not a “victim” he’s a murdering tyrant who wants to kill you. I’m so sick of people making excuses and preach “free speech” for maniacal dictators when the same people often want to silence the Bible in the public school or in any public forum for that matter.

    You say that the 5 D’s make America great, but standing up for what is right makes America even greater. A great country rejects those who would take your 5 D’s and burn them while they cut off your head.

  8. micky2 said,

    Laree,
    Just saw this lady on Hannity and Colmes.
    Aliza Davidovit made a point to let everyone know that it was no carbon copy that she ripped up.

    I’m sorry if anyone finds my wishs undiplomatic , but somewhere in the back of me I was yerning for someone in the audience to get up and just let him have it.

    Why couldnt he of gotten at least a little bit of the discourse that the minute men got ?
    He got off so easy, why ? Somebody should of demanded that he answer the questions and can the crap

  9. Darvin Dowdy said,

    I’m wanting to see Columbia wither on the vine. Stop “all” federal dollars. Let this institution dry up like a raisen. This would send a strong message to other universities. That there is a line that must not be crossed and that certain behavior by students or faculty is not acceptable and will be tolerated. If they want to act a fool then let them form up and finance their own institutions.

    POISON IVY LEAGUE! I like it. Thanks Tyrgrrr.
    DD http://streetlevel.townhall.com

  10. Hueguenot said,

    Jersey: We needed a dialogue with Ahmedinejad to understand him? Actions speak louder than words. His actions over the last 30 years speak volumes. Do you think we gained any great insights from his words?

    The 5 D’s work in a forum like this. In a place like Iran, not so much. But hey, go over there and give it the ol’ college try. And if things go horribly wrong, well, it means you’re about to come face to face with The One Big D on the edge of a sword or out the barrel of a gun. And yes, I’m sure Ahmedinejad learned something from us – that P.T. Barnum severely underestimated the gullibility of people.

  11. mangle1 said,

    This man is a bad man, therefore we should not let him speak. He is bad, so we should stop being Americans and we should not bother to talk about things like grownups. We should assassinate him, as Michelle Malkin proposed.

  12. Hueguenot said,

    Mangle(d thinking):

    If an enemy soldier was hosing down a squad of Marines, would it be right to shoot him, or should we let him excercise his rights to free speech?

    What about a man who’s nifty little new-and-improved i.e.d.’s are responsible for the killing and maiming of at least hundreds of Americans? Would he get a pass because he’s a “head of state?”

    There is a segment of Americans who can always be counted on to want to extend the Constitutional rights of Americans to non-Americans devoted to our death and destruction. The same ones who want to give the vote to felons. And not give a rip about their victims.

    I admire you for wanting to take the high road and talk about things with him like grownups, much as one might in an Ivy League classroom. Me, I’d go the assassinate route in a New York Minute and urinate on his corpse.

  13. USpace said,

    He is a Mad, Mad Terrorist Monkey…

    absurd thought –
    God of the Universe says
    ignore the NEW Hitler

    let him visit Ground Zero
    gloat over terrorism

    absurd thought –
    God of the Universe says
    give New Hitler NUKES

    just wait till he bombs others
    and then just NUKE him back

    absurd thought –
    God of the Universe says
    Sharia MUST rule Earth

    other planets way ahead
    in bringing back stone age
    .

  14. GunnyG said,

    I dropped a note to my Senator and Congressman about Columbia and asked that they take action to chop Columbia’s federal funding, which, if I was in Congress, would already have been done. Anything else is cowardice. The left gives a facade of caring about Freedom of Speech but nothing could be farther from the truth,

    Al Gore chaired the music censorship cmte in 1982, trying to ban language in music. I guess he failed to read the First Amendment.

    On my blog: http://noliberalspin.townhall.com/Default.aspx I have two stories on Moonbattery concerning Freedom of Speech. If you think that liebrals endorse it, you gotta another thing coming.

  15. GunnyG said,

    Jersey,

    “We need to keep a dialogue with the likes of Ahmedinejad, lest we make fatal mistakes in dealing with them in the future. Iraq and Afghanistan should have taught us at least that by now. Know thy enemy. And know this – the Iranian people are not our enemy.”

    Undoubtable the dumbest thing you’ve ever posted. The Japanese people were not our enemy but that didn’t stop THEM from killing Americans and cheering the deaths of same. The German people were not our enemy but they cherrfully made weapons of war to use against us. Same with the NorK’s in 1950, the NVN in the 60’s, etc, etc.

    The Iranian people may not be our enemy (your estimation) but they sure enjoyed taking 52 Americans hostage for 444 days. Funny, I didn’t see a mass uprising to free same hostages.

    North Korea, Syria, and Iran are passing nuclear data and you want dialogue?

    President “I’m-in-a-Jihad” wants to get a hold of nuclear weapons, says he wants to kill the Great Satan (US) and the Lesser Satan (Israel), and you think dialogue will help? What will it take to wake you up? 5 million American french fries in Manhattan, LI a toxic zone, and our economy in shambles after am Iranian nuke gets popped?

    Please, save your pablumic reply,. I won’t waste my precious time reading it, you’ve relegated yourself to Court Jester status. I WILL let you know when we’re having our next VRWC BBQ, so you can show up and sing and dance for us, anything else from you is a waste.

    Eric: Sorry brother but had to pull the trigger on this fumblewit.

  16. Jersey McJones said,

    NJ GOP,

    “Oh Pleeeeeze Jersey get a life.”

    I already have one – I got the heck outta NJ! LOL!

    “The guy is not a “victim”…”

    I never said he was.

    “…he’s a murdering tyrant who wants to kill you.”

    Me? No, I don’t think so.

    “I’m so sick of people making excuses and preach “free speech” for maniacal dictators when the same people often want to silence the Bible in the public school or in any public forum for that matter.”

    What I’d really like is for the people of Iran to have free speech, for Americans to have the right free inquiry, and for people to be smart enough to know that there are just too many Christian and Jewish and other sects and nonsects in America to proselyze any one particular brand of faith in the schools.

    “You say that the 5 D’s make America great, but standing up for what is right makes America even greater.”

    You have to have the 5 D’s first, at least in concept, before you can stand up for them. And I believe I was standing up for them in my initial response to Eric’s post.

    Oh, and here’s the perfect example of a persecuted religous sect expressed in a moniker! Only in America, baby!…

    “Hueguenot”,

    “Jersey: We needed a dialogue with Ahmedinejad to understand him?”

    It helps.

    “Actions speak louder than words. His actions over the last 30 years speak volumes. Do you think we gained any great insights from his words?”

    What actions were those? Deposing an American-installed dictator? Holding hostages to keep us from bombing them for determining their own destinies?

    “Do you think we gained any great insights from his words?”

    I gave two examples: ‘‘we have no homosexuals in Iran’ or ‘why should the Palestinians have to pay for what the Europeans did?’ These are interesting insights into the mindset of millions and millions of people, the sort of insights we don’t seem to get much here.

    GunnyG,

    “The Japanese people were not our enemy but that didn’t stop THEM from killing Americans and cheering the deaths of same. The German people were not our enemy but they cherrfully made weapons of war to use against us.”

    Yes they were our enemies. Before going to war with them we imposed embargoes, aided our allies against them, and only suffered attacks because of this. But the comparison is not apropos. These were empires. They were developed industrialized Western, or Western-style, nations. Iran has attacked no one. There has never been an Iranian terrorist. And Iran never attacked us, aside from the hostage taking, which, as I said, was a shield to protect their own internal revolution. They may support Palestinian rebels, but so do most of the Muslim nations in the region. It’s about the balance of regional powers, and that’s about the only comparison to be had. If it weren’t for Israel and oil, we wouldn’t have much to do with that part of the world, and that part of the world wouldn’t have the money or the impetus to concern themselves with us.

    “North Korea, Syria, and Iran are passing nuclear data and you want dialogue?”

    We have dialogue with North Korea. We’ve most always had. Whether Syria is passing nuclear data is unknown to me. Same for Iran. Pakistan, however, is a known purveyor of nuclear secrets, and the man responsible is a state hero, safely secure in his country.

    “President “I’m-in-a-Jihad” wants to get a hold of nuclear weapons, says he wants to kill the Great Satan (US) and the Lesser Satan (Israel),…”

    I’ve never heard that. I’ve heard that he wants to be rid of Zionism, but so does probably 99% of the Muslim world. Look, let’s face it, if it weren’t for Christain anti-semitism, there’d be no Israel today, and the Ahmedinejads of the world would be hard-pressed to critique us beyond our imperial demand for their oil.

    Ignorance is far more dangerous than knowledge. This is one of my pet peeves with Judeo-Christo-Islam: from the very first book, Genesis, we see that ignorance is considered a Holy moral value. If we could ever get rid of this foolish epistemology, perhaps we’d all get along a lot better.

    JMJ

  17. GunnyG said,

    Jersey,

    Last point before I slap you on the ignore list (you’re nothing but a waste of keystrokes.)

    You bleated: “Look, let’s face it, if it weren’t for Christain anti-semitism, there’d be no Israel today, and the Ahmedinejads of the world would be hard-pressed to critique us beyond our imperial demand for their oil.”

    The Jewish Diaspora was caused by the Romans, who were not Christians, they were polytheistic. The Greeks, the Persians, all polytheistic, have persecuted the Jews.

    Mohammed called the Jews, “people of the book” until he was strong enough to murder them. Hardly a Christian.

    Hitler murdered the Jews and he was a pagan, constantly referring to the old Germanic gods. Again, hardly a Christain.

    Maybe you research who is honored in the Garden of the Righteous and on the Avenue of the Righteous.” Many Christians who sheltered Jews and many who died for it.

    I’m a RC who would drop what he was doing if Israel was attacked by the Arabs and offer my services gratis to the Jews. As they say, “never again.” They’re worth dying for but I can’t say the same for American liberals.

    BTW, that land was Jewish before it was Arab. They rate to live there.

  18. mangle1 said,

    GunnyG, I see you’re not offering your services to help fight in Iraq and kill innocent brown people. I suppose that would be the Christian thing to do…

  19. Jersey McJones said,

    Gunny, either you’re not understanding me or you are intentionally mischaracterizing my comments. Let’s have an honest debate, okay? We can have fun, but let’s be genuine.

    Jersey,

    “You bleated: “Look, let’s face it, if it weren’t for Christain anti-semitism, there’d be no Israel today, and the Ahmedinejads of the world would be hard-pressed to critique us beyond our imperial demand for their oil.”

    The Jewish Diaspora was caused by the Romans, who were not Christians, they were polytheistic. The Greeks, the Persians, all polytheistic, have persecuted the Jews.”

    I’m not going back to AD70, here, Gunny. I’m talking about the Holocaust, and the post-WWII Jewish refugees, and the Americans’ and the British Commonwealth nations’ refusal to take them in. Had we taken them, there would be no Israel today. Had the Nazi’s and their allies not commited genocide against them, there would be no Israel today.

    “Mohammed called the Jews, “people of the book” until he was strong enough to murder them. Hardly a Christian.”

    The Muslims were a lot nicer to the Jews than the Christians for most of their history. Really, you have to come all the way to post-WWII to see that dramtic reversal. It’s funny that you want to travel almost two thousand years into history to prove your point, but ignore all the historical meantime, right up to the modern, when it suits you.

    “Hitler murdered the Jews and he was a pagan, constantly referring to the old Germanic gods. Again, hardly a Christain.”

    Oh riiiiight! Super Evil Hitler Man used his Villianous Super Gas Breath to eradicate 6 million Jews! That’s right! No Christians had aaaaaaanything to do with that! Get your head out of comic-book land and get real. I’ll always wonder why Jews trust conservative Christians. I know it’s a marraige of convenience – an “enemy of my enemy” thing, but man’o’man, I’d be careful if I were them. Christians are no friends of the Jews. The only reason the righwing in America wants the Jews in Israel is because they are silly enough to believe that a united Judea and Samarra will bring a new Temple and with that a return of the Christ, at which point all the Jews and other denier’s of Jesus will be left to armageddon. Nice ally.

    “BTW, that land was Jewish before it was Arab. They rate to live there.”

    Before there were Jews, there were other people, and before them Neanderthals. If they ever manage to clone a Neanderthal, shall we give him Israel? Shall we return America to the Natives? Shall we return Northern Ireland to the Catholic Irish? Or better yet, the Druids? How about we find all the Picts and give them Scotland? Oh, hey, here’s an idea, let’s give Moscow back to the Golden Horde! Oh wait – what about Australia? I’m sure the Aborigines would love to have THAT back! And before people, there were huge cats and bears. Let’s just give all the cats and bears back everything and move to Mars – and then, if we discover Martians, we’ll just become planetless refugees wandering the universe in search of who was where first.

    Great point there, Gunny.

    JMJ

  20. hueguenot said,

    “Hueguenot”,

    “Jersey: We needed a dialogue with Ahmedinejad to understand him?”

    It helps.

    “Actions speak louder than words. His actions over the last 30 years speak volumes. Do you think we gained any great insights from his words?”

    What actions were those? Deposing an American-installed dictator? Holding hostages to keep us from bombing them for determining their own destinies?

  21. hueguenot said,

    Oops, accidentally hit Submit prematurely.

    Jersey: do you really think the Iranian hostage taking was the only thing he’s done of note in the last 30 years? This guy has left a 30-year trail of blood and entrails in his wake, and the thing that springs most readily to mind has to do with American soldiers getting blown up by weapons supplied by him. You’ll probably respond with some comment about defense against American imperialism. Do you think the Iranians under the Ayatollah really determined their own destinies? Either you are irretrievably obtuse or I’m being punked.

    I’m outta here, so you’ll get the last word. I’m sure it will be rich. Later.

  22. Jersey McJones said,

    Oh no, Hueguenot (are you really a Hueguenot?), I wouldn’t say that. The Iranian regime has been horrific to their people. That’s what theocracies do. Ahmedijejad is just a little cog in that big ol’ mean mean machine. The Mullahs are the ones who really run that country. Hopefully, if we treat Iran with diplomacy and care, when all these young Iranians get a little more power, they can rid themselves of the Mullahs and we’ll see a friend in a place where we desperately need one. But if we try to pull a ‘Catsro’ on them, they’re only going to withdraw and become more reactionary and fundamentalist.

    You have to understand that the Mullahs took advantage of the student rebellion and usurped them in the end, much like what happened in France during their revolution. The students wanted a social democracy and wound up with a fundamentalist theocracy. The Shah was wanted by neither group, though – not so much because he was any worse than what they have now, but because he was not a product of their own sovereignity.

    As for weapons and all that, I don’t know. I haven’t seen much proof. YEs, sure, I’m sure their are weapons smuggled into to help the Shia militias, but I’m sure there are lots of arms coming from lots of places into Iraq. Whether the Iranian gov’t is in on it and at what level is unknown to me. I don’t trust our incompetents in the militray, gov’t and press any more than anyone else. After all, America is the number one purveyor of arms in the world. I’d bet my thumb that a lot more Americans have been killed with our own manufactured arms than anyone elses.

    JMJ

  23. hueguenot said,

    Jersey:

    Sorry, I had to come back. Like a moth to the flame.

    I have some Huguenot ancestors, but I mostly use that name on line ‘cuz it’s catchy. Even misspelled, it won out over DogVomit and Smegma.

    I think talking with what’s his name is like discussing celestial navigation with someone who thinks the world is flat, but you make an excellent point that I agree with 100% – it is a delicate situation and I do think the answer lies in the young Iranians, and that our best course of action is to support them however we can. Let’s hope what’s his name doesn’t become operational with nukes and start pointing them around in the meantime.

    I do understand what happened in 1979, but I don’t give anyone a pass for the taking of the hostages.

    I agree that we’re a big purveyor of arms, but I have a hard time believing we’re the biggest. I doubt we could touch the former Soviet bloc countries or that their weapons haven’t killed the most Americans. I could be wrong, but whatever the case, I don’t think that lets Iran off the hook for anything. I don’t have the documentation in front of me, so maybe I should pipe down about it.

    But regarding the subject of Eric’s post, I can’t come up with the mental gymnastics required to disagree that this whole Ahmedinajad (sp?) fete at Columbia was at best, a boneheaded stunt, and at worst, a betrayal of his many victims. I think his views are easily accessible by the internet and other means, that there were no surprises (did anyone doubt that any homosexuals that haven’t already been killed in Iran are closeted like a plaid gabardene sport coat from 1975?) and that this thing was just a dog and pony show that he was able to use for his own propaganda purposes back home and abroad.

    This time I REALLY do need to go. Good talking with you.

  24. GunnyG said,

    mangle1,

    Actually, I’m in-country and HELPING those brown people help themselves to a double serving of democracy. The attacks are way down and the Iraqis are helping US help them. In fact, when the A-Q recently assassinated that Shiek who helped us, his tribe stepped forward en masse.

    Don’t believe the MSM or libscum. They lie like a rug.

  25. NJ GOP said,

    Geez Jersey, you seem a little sensitive. I guess “dissent” is only ok if you are the one “dissenting”.

  26. NJ GOP said,

    Jersey’s quote: “Say what you want about him and the way he thinks, but he is a product of that nation, that culture, and the history of that region.”

    So I guess he gets a pass since he is a “victim”?? I mean, he can’t help it, right?

  27. David M said,

    Trackbacked by The Thunder Run – Web Reconnaissance for 09/25/2007
    A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention, updated throughout the day…so check back often.

  28. GunnyG said,

    NJ GOP,

    Great point on the nutjob from Iran. This guy allows women to be STONED to death and someone here runs a screen for him. I’ve watched videos smuggled out of Iran on that and it is hideous. He should have been arrested and held for seizing our Embassy in 1979, holding Americans hostage, and for the 20 million that Iran owes.

  29. Jersey McJones said,

    Nice talking with you too, Hueguenot!

    NJ GOP,

    “Geez Jersey, you seem a little sensitive. I guess “dissent” is only ok if you are the one “dissenting”.”

    Wh-haaaat? What do you mean by that. (I though I was being a little light hearted, if anything!)

    “So I guess he gets a pass since he is a “victim”?? I mean, he can’t help it, right?”

    If you want to believe that, then fine. I wouldn’t call a man who victimizes people and rose to power in his country a “victim,” but who am I to tell you? If you think Ahmedinejad is a victim then that;s what you think Who am I to argue with you on that?

    Gunny,

    Yeah, it’s really tragic that some of the Muslim world allows that sort of thing. Gee, rememebr when Saddam banned that in Iraq? Too bad it’s returned to Iraq too. Jews and Christians used to do that. Thank God they ignore those nasty from the Bible today, huh?

    JMJ

  30. micky2 said,

    Gunny,
    I did some looking around because I’ve heard lot of stories that president Tom actyally participated in physically taking hostages at the embassy in 79.
    Believe it or not this info comes from the NY Times.

    You should check out the whole article, its a trip.

    http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D01E3DD103AF932A35754C0A9639C8B63&n=Top/Reference/Times%20Topics/Subjects/U/United%20States%20Foreign%20Service

    “In separate interviews, four former hostages who were military or intelligence officers at the embassy and identified the president-elect as a leader among their captors did not waver.”

    “Mr. Daugherty said he saw Mr. Ahmadinejad 8 to 10 times in the first 19 days of captivity, before the hostages were separated. ”

    “Another former hostage, Kevin Hermening, 45, a financial planner in Mosinee, Wis., who was a Marine guard at the embassy, remembered Mr. Ahmadinejad as an interrogator and ”higher-rank security official.”

    “Colonel Scott, who was an Army military attaché, said, ”There’s no doubt from the way the guy moves, it’s the same guy.” Several other former hostages said they did not recall Mr. Ahmadinejad, but added that they did not find this surprising because the hostages were held in isolated rooms. ”

    “Speaking at a White House news briefing on the president’s trip next week to the Group of 8 summit meeting in Scotland, Mr. Hadley emphasized, as Mr. Bush did, that the government had not yet determined whether the allegations were true, but that they would be investigated seriously. ”

    O.K. heres my point. This onfo comes from on sight witnesses and military and other credible operatives that were there at the time.
    And if it is being investigated seriously as the President says cant or shouldnt we haul Pres. Toms ass in ?

  31. hueguenot said,

    Hey, Jersey. It’s lunchtime and I’m back.

    Getting off-topic here, but please do me a favor and consider this. You repeatedly mention Christian persecution and mistreatment of the Jews through the centuries. I will be the first to acknowledge that people who call themselves Christians or belong to societies or cultures that call themselves Christian have done those things. Again and again. I will even acknowledge that many of those people took bits and pieces of the Bible to try to justify their actions, that is, if they even felt the need to justify them. But those people were not Christians any more then is a Grand Dragon of the KKK, no matter what he might claim.

    Jesus, a Jew, said you’ll know a tree by it’s fruit.

    Imagine I hired 30 people you had never even met, to go through your city and kill every person of color they came across, in your name. What would that say about you and your friends and admirers? Right, absolutely nothing. What if some of those 30 were friends of yours who had gone crazy? Should you be judged by it? Right again.

    It’s simple: the more one studies the Bible and tries to live by it, the more inescapable is the conclusion that the mildest enmity toward Jews is absolutely antithetical to Christian belief and living. Real Christians love the Jews the way a grateful adopted son looks at his natural-born older brother. I don’t know how more plainly to put it. I’m not asking you to subscribe to my beliefs, but I’m respectfully asking you reconsider calling those who mistreat Jews “Christians.”

    Thanks.

  32. hueguenot said,

    One more thing. Actually there’s a lot of things, but I’ll stick with this one correction. I don’t believe that “Jews and other denier’s of Jesus will be left to armageddon.” I believe Paul when he wrote to the Roman Christians, that “all Israel will be saved.” He also wrote that Israel has experienced a hardening in part (toward Christ) while Gentiles have been given an opportunity to come to Christ.

    Man, I don’t want to get into a religious debate here, (sorry Eric), but I think a lot of what you’ve been saying has severely mischaracterized Christian belief as laid out in the Bible. Not to be insulting, but your comments give me the impression that of the Bible you know “just enough to be dangerous.” Kind of like all those “Christians” who have harmed Jews.

    Thanks again.

  33. Jersey McJones said,

    Hue, there is plenty of antisemitic vitriol in the NT: http://www.messiahtruth.com/anti.html

    Look, in the end, though, rhetoric and reality are two different things. People say all sorts of things and do all sorts of contradictory things. It’s human nature. And people can easily be baited and led under the right circumstance. Take the mid-war years in Europe. There was a terrible depression in Germany and Austria. Poeple were literally drowning themselves and their own kids in the Dunube and the Rhein. Well, centuries earlier, Christian leaders had forced the Jews into certain “unChristian” professions, like banking, lending, investing, exchanging, etc. So, when the depression hit, though it was Germany’s and Austria’s own doing, the leaders in those countries (and in their churches) took advantage of the forced Jewish professions and blamed the Jews for their plight. Next thing you know you have progroms and the holocaust. Before that it was the Inquiiiiiisition (you have to sing it like Mel Brooks), and pretty much the same reasoning went into that – blame the non-Christians for the Christian peoples’ own failings. History is a series of interconnected events, as I assume you know, and religion plays into those events.

    Remember, religion is maintained and reinforced by the clan mantality – the us and them, the we are right and everyone else is wrong, good and evil, truth and lie. Everything in the clan is us, right, good, truth. Everything outside the clan is them, wrong, evil, lie. Religion itself feeds this clanism and brings us holocausts and jihads, progroms and crusades. Nationalism, racism and religion – the three great clanistic plagues of man.

    I despise religion. All religion. not religious people, mind you – but religion.

    Great discussion!

    JMJ

  34. Carole said,

    My 2 cents;

    Knowing God, being a Christian, and having read the New Testament, I have to tell you, J…Christians are not anti-semitic. I know. I am one, and I know many.

    As for the so called anti-semitic passages in the New Testament, to someone who has read the context, it is plain that the Scribes and Pharisees are not code for the Jewish nation. To believe Christians are anti-semitic based on those passages makes as much sense as believing Muslims are terrorists based on the series of attacks all over the world perpetrated by the Islamo fascists.

    And since you have previously mentioned that you do not believe in God, then kindly take the word of those of us in relationship with Him; anti-semitism is not a Christian characteristic.

    Just a thought.

  35. Jersey McJones said,

    Carole, never assume what someone may know about something, regardless of whether he believes it or not. Remember what Felix Unger said about the word “assume.” I happen to be well versed in history and religion.

    After the Romans destroyed the Temple, the Jews seperated into basically two surviving groups: the Pharisees and the Jesus Jews. The Pharisees believed that the Temple was destroyed because the Jews had lost their way and were not following the 613 mitzots, whilst the Jesus Jews felt that the temple was destroyed because the Jews needed to open up and let more people and cultures in. The Jesus Jews were sort of the liberals of their day, whilst the Pharisees were the conservatives. The remnants of the Pharisees became the Judaism of today. The Jesus Jews assimilated with the Gentiles and became the Christians of today. The two have been apart and at odds ever since. Call it what you want – but there is a different point of view therein.

    Let me ask you these: Do you think that Jews, who do not convert to Christianity, will ascend to heaven, or be a part of the God’s Kingdom on Earth come the End times? Do you believe that the Jews murdered Jesus in defiance of the Thruth, or that Jesus used the Jews to fulfill prophesy (like bringing that donkey through the gates of Jerusalem)? You have a fundamental difference of belief, of worldview, of perspective from the Jews. Are you going to deny that? Will you deny that the only reason you want to see an united Israel is because you believe that this will bring a new Temple and with it a Second Coming and with that the doom of all non-believers, including the Jews?

    Call it what you want, but it sure ain’t “pro-semitic!”

    JMJ

  36. Carole said,

    “Do you think that Jews, who do not convert to Christianity, will ascend to heaven, or be a part of the God’s Kingdom on Earth come the End times?”

    If I were to believe in the bible literally, I would have to believe that is the case.

    “Do you believe that the Jews murdered Jesus in defiance of the Thruth, or that Jesus used the Jews to fulfill prophesy (like bringing that donkey through the gates of Jerusalem)? ”

    I don’t “believe” Jews murdered Jesus. The people that crucified Jesus did it out of ignorance of the truth. I am certain they did not do it to ‘fulfill prophesy’, even if it did.

    ‘You have a fundamental difference of belief, of worldview, of perspective from the Jews. Are you going to deny that?’

    Actually, I have a fundamental difference in belief, worldview or perspective from many people, based merely on my upbringing. Why I should deny that, or why that should signify here is completely irrelevant. Actually, I utterly disagree with Eric on football. Doesn’t make me anti-eric or anti-semitic.

    “Will you deny that the only reason you want to see an united Israel is because you believe that this will bring a new Temple and with it a Second Coming and with that the doom of all non-believers, including the Jews?”

    Uh….yeah. Never even heard of that till now.

    And still, you missed my point. I, and most Christians, are NOT anti-semitic. It is totally contradictory to the heart of a Christian…one who has met and lives in relationship with, God. My point was I know this, because I am one. Additionally, I know many others like me who are Christians.

    J, you have much knowledge. Knowledge, and faith are two different things. I have a little knowledge, but I know more about my faith – the reality of my relationship with God. In the years I have been sitting at His feet, my heart has gone away from anti-anything, and closer to the ability to follow the two main commandments Jesus gave; Love the Lord your God with all your Heart, and Love your neighbor as yourself. Frankly, I don’t see a fundamental difference of belief, perspective, or worldview there with the Jewish faith. Perhaps that is why Christians and Jews are truly not at odds.

  37. Jersey McJones said,

    Carole,

    I asked, “Do you think that Jews, who do not convert to Christianity, will ascend to heaven, or be a part of the God’s Kingdom on Earth come the End times?”

    You said, “If I were to believe in the bible literally, I would have to believe that is the case.”

    Well, do you?

    I asked, “Do you believe that the Jews murdered Jesus in defiance of the Truth (sp), or that Jesus used the Jews to fulfill prophesy (like bringing that donkey through the gates of Jerusalem)? ”

    You said, “I don’t “believe” Jews murdered Jesus. The people that crucified Jesus did it out of ignorance of the truth. I am certain they did not do it to ‘fulfill prophesy’, even if it did.”

    What “people”? The Romans? The Jews? Didn’t they together kill Jesus? What if they didn’t? What if they, or one or the other, accepted Him?

    I said, “You have a fundamental difference of belief, of worldview, of perspective from the Jews. Are you going to deny that?”

    You said, “Actually, I have a fundamental difference in belief, worldview or perspective from many people, based merely on my upbringing. Why I should deny that, or why that should signify here is completely irrelevant. Actually, I utterly disagree with Eric on football. Doesn’t make me anti-eric or anti-semitic.”

    Football is a game. By your logic, my being a Jet’s fan would make me anti-31-football teams. In a way that is true, in that I want my Jets to win more games than all of the rest of them, but am I anti-them? No. If my Jets don’t make the playoffs, then I route for some other team I like – some other team I wish the Jets were more like. Big differerence there.

    I said, “Will you deny that the only reason you want to see an united Israel is because you believe that this will bring a new Temple and with it a Second Coming and with that the doom of all non-believers, including the Jews?”

    You said, “Uh….yeah. Never even heard of that till now.”

    Welcome to the world. You are now officially one day old.

    “And still, you missed my point. I, and most Christians, are NOT anti-semitic. It is totally contradictory to the heart of a Christian…one who has met and lives in relationship with, God. My point was I know this, because I am one. Additionally, I know many others like me who are Christians.”

    “J, you have much knowledge. Knowledge, and faith are two different things.”

    You’re a good, honest person, Carole. I believe that you believe what you believe. ;) You are absolutley right – “Knowledge, and faith are two different things.”

    I do have faith, but not in God. I have faith in people like you. I am an humanist. (Sorry, but I felt like throwing down some old British grammar there.)

    JMJ

  38. Carole said,

    “Well, do you?”

    Gee, I hate to oversimplify this but…no, I don’t.

    “What “people”? The Romans? The Jews? Didn’t they together kill Jesus? What if they didn’t? What if they, or one or the other, accepted Him?”

    What difference does it make who did it? Their ignorance was the point ‘Father forgive them for they know not what they do’. And if they didn’t, I guess we wouldn’t be talking about Jesus, would we? Are you perhaps implying that I would have a problem with people because they crucified Jesus?

    “By your logic, my being a Jet’s fan would make me anti-31-football teams.”

    Well, no…actually…that was your logic. You are the one saying if I’m pro one thing, I’m anti the other. Not me.

    “Welcome to the world. You are now officially one day old.”

    LOLOL! Oh, that’s brilliant! I don’t know one issue that some people might ascribe to regarding Israel, and I’m not even born yet?

    Hm….you believe I believe what I believe. Truly profound….statement of, uh…nothing.

    So, okay, I’ll play. I believe you believe what you believe….that christians are anti-semitic. That doesn’t change the fact that that is a.) a gross generalization which by it’s very nature is suspect and b.) I know that to be untrue. Note I didn’t say believe it to be untrue. Knowledge and faith for two different things.

    And while I applaud your…simple…faith in people, I am tempted here to wonder…is it I or you that needed to be ‘born’ into the world? I have a modicum of faith in what I would hope to be the inherent good of people [I actually think that it is that potential good that the Lord cultivates as He loves us into the fullness of that good, although that is another topic] but I have a very realistic understanding – knowledge – that imperfect man is not worthy of the trust I ascribe to my God….even Christians.

    Good luck with that faith in humanity thing.

  39. Hueguenot said,

    Sorry, Eric.

    Jersey sez:

    “Let me ask you these:”

    I’d like to take a crack at them.

    “Do you think that Jews, who do not convert to Christianity, will ascend to heaven,”

    I agree with Paul when he admonished the Roman Christians that “all Israel will be saved.” True, I believe they will come to accept Yeshua as their Messiah, even if they go kicking and screaming, (I hope they don’t see that as patronizing or condescending, I don’t mean it that way) but I believe God’s covenant with the Jews means yep, they’re going to heaven.

    “or be a part of the God’s Kingdom on Earth come the End times?”

    YES, you’re getting it. God’s covenant with Israel is irrevocable. The Christian church is not the “New Israel” and Christians will not supplant the Jews. We will be priviledged to be adopted into their family. Despite what the people at messiahtruth.com (a rebuttal to their website is the material for a whole book) claim to know of my heart, I take my cue from Paul in Romans 10 and 11. The idea that when Jews refuse my proselytizing my true hate will show itself, is beyond preposterous. I understand the reasons for their paranoia, but I think they’re wrong. God will gather all Israel to Himself. I don’t have to get my panties in a bunch if they don’t want to come to Sunday School with me in the meantime.

    “Do you believe that the Jews murdered Jesus in defiance of the Thruth, or that Jesus used the Jews to fulfill prophesy (like bringing that donkey through the gates of Jerusalem)?”

    No. I believe that all humanity, especially myself, is responsible for Jesus death. God allowed Israel’s heart to be hardened to reject their Messiah. I do believe this was in fulfillment of prophecy, not for their judgment but so that I could be saved also. I also note that Jesus was not a victim or martyr but willingly submitted in obedience to His Father (John 10:18), that it was the Romans who carried out the capital sentence, and that I, through my sin, had a hand in his death. I am responsible. I am grateful to the Jews through whom the world has been blessed (Genesis 12:3), and that through their rejection of Yeshua, I had the opportunity to be saved.

    “You have a fundamental difference of belief, of worldview, of perspective from the Jews. Are you going to deny that?”

    Of course not, and I expect that Jews will find my presumption in believing I know who their Messiah is to be hubristic, blasphemous and offensive. I regret that, and because of it and my respect for them, I am humble and circumspect about my beliefs in their presence.

    “Will you deny that the only reason you want to see an united Israel is because you believe that this will bring a new Temple and with it a Second Coming and with that the doom of all non-believers, including the Jews?”

    Hell, yes I deny it, and this is the most ridiculous thing any non-believer has ever presumed to tell me about my faith. Like Carol, this is also the first I’ve heard of it and betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of Christian belief, no matter how much you know about history and the I don’t have to fret about a united Israel – God is in charge of Israel’s welfare, not me. I also see the events you cite as a chronology, not a chain of causative effects. I don’t scan the newspapers looking for signs of the rebuilding of the Temple – God’s plans will happen, however they happen. I don’t hope for the doom of ANY unbeliever, which is why I talk to them about my faith, and as I already mentioned, don’t worry about the Jews – God is looking out for them.

    Look, I don’t expect this to be any more than gobbledygook to you, but your presumed knowledge of my heart is 180 degrees wrong and I won’t let it go unanswered.

    Good night, all.

  40. Hueguenot said,

    I left a word off the beginning of my first answer to you, so that it might appear I am equivocating. What I meant to say was “YES I DO – I agree with Paul…”

  41. Jersey McJones said,

    Well Carole, it’s good to hear that you are not a Literalist!

    I asked, “What “people”? The Romans? The Jews? Didn’t they together kill Jesus? What if they didn’t? What if they, or one or the other, accepted Him?”

    You answered, “What difference does it make who did it? Their ignorance was the point ‘Father forgive them for they know not what they do’. And if they didn’t, I guess we wouldn’t be talking about Jesus, would we? Are you perhaps implying that I would have a problem with people because they crucified Jesus?”

    No, I’m saying that you shouldn’t have a problem with who killed Jesus, but many many many people over the ages have. Some Gnostics believed the Jesus intended to martyr himself. It actually makes sense to me.

    I said, “By your logic, my being a Jet’s fan would make me anti-31-football teams.”

    You said, “Well, no…actually…that was your logic. You are the one saying if I’m pro one thing, I’m anti the other. Not me.”

    That’s good to hear.

    “LOLOL! Oh, that’s brilliant! I don’t know one issue that some people might ascribe to regarding Israel, and I’m not even born yet?”

    Oh c’mon. If you never heard the prophesy that a united Israel will bring back Jesus, then what kind of Christian are you?

    Good luck with that faith in a deity thing. ;)

    Hue,

    Well, I suppose if Jesus really did come back and perform miracles and such, we’d ALL convert! Even atheists like me! Heck, if I could have just one iota of evidence of God, of course I’d consider faith in Him.

    What I was driving at with my questions about who killed Jesus and why was two-fold: That Jesus, if he was crucified (I don’t know that he was), may well have gotten himself crucified quite intentionally, and that many people do put the onus on Jews or the Romans or both and to this day distrust Jews and government because of that, even though Jesus was a Jew and the Romans were not of considerable interest to Him.

    It’s good to see that Carole and you are not crazy fundies, but surely you know they’re out there, and surely you know that they tend to identify as conservatives. Nothing you said was gobbledygook to me. It’s sounds like mainstream Catholicism or Protestantism to me. But remember, the number one Christian group in America are Born-Again Non-denoms, not exactly a bunch grounded in thorough theology.

    JMJ

  42. Carole said,

    J,

    What kind of Christian am I? One in relationship with the Father, not a relationship with a religion, or one that follows end times prophecy. And if you need proof of God’s existence, the fact that I am alive now is one. And if you honestly would believe in God, ask Him if He exists. He will let you know. And He will surprise you.

    The problem always is that you paint groups of people with one brush….with your color on it. If that is how you need to live your life, great. However, you have conversed on this blog with at least three Christians that I know of that do not fit your ‘color’.
    Perhaps you need to broaden your primary colors to a few other shades.

  43. Jersey McJones said,

    Carole,

    Oh, that whole “personal relationship with God” thing. Hey, whatever make ya’ happy! I have to say, I rarely meeet non-denoms who are seriously grounded in theology. Perhaps you are, perhaps you’re not, but when you make your religion purely a personal thing, it’s very hard to debate any aspect of it, because you could believe pretty much whatever you want. It’s different to debate a Catholic or a Methodist or a Mormon or a Reformed Jew, but the “personal relationship” faith is just to broad and individualized to make for discernable stands on the issues. But if it makes you happy, and you don’t hurt anyone with it, then I say, hey, good for you!

    I can not get past the logical incongruities of the God of Abraham. And, to honest, though this is not the basis of my reasoning, I don’t really like “Him.”

    And I do not “always… paint groups of people with one brush.” That’s just silly. When I’m generalizing, I’m generalizing. I can only hope that the reader can see what I mean. I’m not going to spend hours and hours commenting on blogs with a perfectionists specificity to everything I write. You guys don’t! Liberals this, Shillary that, Democ-rats this, Billary that. C’mon. I can follow what you’re saying. You can follow me.

    You’re a good debator, Carole. Let’s critique the points of contention and not each other.

    JMJ

  44. Carole said,

    I am no stranger to religion. But religion was not what brought me to God. And my faith is not about a religion. The entire bible is full of people in personal relationship with God. That is what God is about. I am a Christian. I know Christians. You were claiming something about Christians that isn’t true. I was addressing it. You were also painting me – and others – with your ‘Christians think this, are this…’ or whatever color, and that wasn’t true either. I am asking you to have the courage to step out of all the apparent preconceptions you have and embrace the evidence presented….from at least three of us….that you may have made some faulty generalizations. But, your call.

  45. Jersey McJones said,

    Carole, granted that generalizations are like assumptions, I apologize for offending your sensibilities. If you chose to seperate your relationship with God from religion, then that’s fine with me. I don’t consider Buddhists or Hindis religious. I don’t consider Gnostics religious. Please do tell me what makes you one of faith as opposed to religious. (This could be lots of fun!)

    JMJ

  46. Hueguenot said,

    Jersey sez:

    “Well, I suppose if Jesus really did come back and perform miracles and such, we’d ALL convert! Even atheists like me!”

    Funny you should say that. I suppose maybe you’re being facetious here, and maybe have even read some of the passages that address that claim (If he showed me a sign, THEN I’d believe!), such as Matt. 12:38-42, Luke 16:20-31, Luke 23:8-9, John 20:24-29.

    Heck, if I could have just one iota of evidence of God, of course I’d consider faith in Him.”

    I’m not sure what you consider evidence. Do you mean that the same way the Left means evidence of WMD – e.g., a big red and white candy-striped nuclear missle with “Destination: The Great Satan,” “Washington or Bust,” and “Death to the Infidel” stenciled on the side? Sorry, topic for a different day.

    If I could have just one iota of evidence of the existence of love, maybe I’d believe in it. You see God nowhere, I see him everywhere. If you’re honest, you think that’s a delusion on my part, I am delusional.

    “What I was driving at with my questions about who killed Jesus and why was two-fold: That Jesus, if he was crucified (I don’t know that he was), may well have gotten himself crucified quite intentionally”

    He did. There was a pretty big overarching purpose to it, and it wasn’t as a martyr to Roman oppression.

    “and that many people do put the onus on Jews or the Romans or both”

    And have completely missed the point.

    “and to this day distrust Jews and government because of that, even though Jesus was a Jew and the Romans were not of considerable interest to Him.”

    And have completely missed the point. Yep, it’s baffling and sad that so many are so obtuse. Dunno what to tell you.

    “It’s good to see that Carole and you are not crazy fundies”

    And you’re glad that my psychological crutch helps me get through the night, too, right? :-) I know you’re not trying to be patronizing, but by my beliefs I AM what you would call a fundy, and if I am a fundy, how can I not be crazy? (And if Jesus was a good teacher and a good man and not a pathological liar and nut job, how could he claim to be God?) Look, I’m breaking my own rule here by arguing the picayune with someone with completely different presuppositions as me. Sorry.

    “but surely you know they’re out there, and surely you know that they tend to identify as conservatives.”

    Oh, heck yeah, but every group has crazy representatives. I bet there are even crazy atheists and agnostics out there, too. I can’t make crazy people stop calling themselves Christians, but it’s a source of great consternation to me. Not the conservative part. I’m OK with conservatives, I are one.

    Yep. Many Christians (I don’t believe it’s “most” by any stretch of the imagination. I think if most atheists were really honest, they would admit that what they “know” about Christians comes mainly from Hollywood and not first-hand knowledge) are uneducated, many are dense, many are bigoted. But it is the sick that most need a doctor, and it is the simple and the children who most readily respond to the gospel. Heck, it has been whispered by many that I’m no rocket scientist myself.

    “Nothing you said was gobbledygook to me. It’s sounds like mainstream Catholicism or Protestantism to me.”

    Well, good. I don’t expect you to agree, but I would prefer to not seem like a nut job to you.

    “But remember, the number one Christian group in America are Born-Again Non-denoms, not exactly a bunch grounded in thorough theology.”

    Yeah, it’s a major failing of the Evangelical church of which I am a part, and there’s a whole lot that can be said about that. The biblical doctrine of grace is pretty radical, and is a pretty big stumbling block to the intellect. This phenomenon, along with the others you mention, seem to be most prevalent in America, where life is mostly cush, and we have lots of distractions. Part of it is that salvation is a gift of God through a pretty simple faith, and doesn’t require a degree in theology. Look at my words here as an example – they’re pretty simple. Unfortunately, many make the mistake that free grace means easy grace or cheap grace, and many are turned off by doctrine or systematic theology and see no need to take an intellectual plunge into the mysteries of their own faith. Many are preoccupied with subjective experience. It’s too bad, but it doesn’t precude them from salvation, any more than my own not clapping my hands very much on Sunday mornings means my faith is dead.

    I think our conversation would be a lot different were we having it in a country (I’m assuming you’re in the U.S) where people walk 20 miles to attend a Bible study, or where meeting in someone’s house to read a contraband Bible may mean a trip to get the crap beat out of you or to the jail or the executioner. Yes, it happens. I don’t imagine Chinese or Sudanese Christians, for example, believe in cheap or easy grace. I imagine their faith is a serious thing to them, and I imagine they treat it with real intellectual rigor. They humble me.

    Good night.

  47. Jersey McJones said,

    Great stuff, Hue!

    Allow me to share my variant opinions.

    You asked, “I’m not sure what you consider evidence. Do you mean that the same way the Left means evidence of WMD – e.g., a big red and white candy-striped nuclear missle with “Destination: The Great Satan,” “Washington or Bust,” and “Death to the Infidel” stenciled on the side?”

    Some on “the Left” may perhaps think that way, but I don’t. I do not doubt that the Saddamists had some nasty weapons or at least some of the parts. I don’t doubt that we do. I don’t doubt that dozens of wacky nations have such things. If anything, I fretted at the onset of the invasion that perhaps the RG might use some sort of nasty device against our soldiers as they inevitibly blitzed into Baghdad like a big, muscular drunk plunging fist first into the center of an angry crowd.

    What concerned me about Iraq was the matters of intent and reality. Wesley Clark commented recently that he’d a conversation with Paul Wolfowitz toward the end of the formal hostilities of the Gulf War. Wolf, like many, was disappointed that we didn’t ‘finish the job’ and didn’t drive into Baghdad. He was already contemplating ‘remaking the Middle East,’ into some sort of new democratic model. Years later, he got the chance – and then reality set in. Cheney was right, back then in 1992, when he said…

    “…I think we got it right, both when we decided to expel him from Kuwait, but also when the president made the decision that we’d achieved our objectives and we were not going to go get bogged down in the problems of trying to take over and govern Iraq. … All of a sudden you’ve got a battle you’re fighting in a major built-up city, a lot of civilians are around, significant limitations on our ability to use our most effective technologies and techniques,… Once we had rounded him up and gotten rid of his government, then the question is what do you put in its place? You know, you then have accepted the responsibility for governing Iraq. … Now what kind of government are you going to establish? Is it going to be a Kurdish government, or a Shi’ia government, or a Sunni government, or maybe a government based on the old Baathist Party, or some mixture thereof? You will have, I think by that time, lost the support of the Arab coalition that was so crucial to our operations over there, … I would guess if we had gone in there, I would still have forces in Baghdad today, we’d be running the country. We would not have been able to get everybody out and bring everybody home.”

    That’s what concerned me too. It looks like Cheney and I fretted for the same reasons. And if Cheney knew this then why’d we eventually go in? Endless money for contractors and big oil? Power through fear? Nah. Couldn’t be.

    You said, “The biblical doctrine of grace is pretty radical, and is a pretty big stumbling block to the intellect. This phenomenon, along with the others you mention, seem to be most prevalent in America, where life is mostly cush, and we have lots of distractions.”

    I beg to differ. I think the reason Americans are so prone to Faith is that our lives are not “cush.” I think our lives are actually miserable – cruelly competitive, exhaustingly rigorous, painfully lonely. Compared to our international peers, we work more and spend less time with family. We die younger. We suffer more social ills. We dislike each other more. They drink and take drugs for fun. We drink and take drugs to escape. They eat and stay slender. We get fat. They enjoy life. We just live it. In God we find solace, comfort, unconditional love, company. That’s why the “personal relationship with God.” In a life with so few personal relationships, we, like an only child, turn to an imaginary friend for company. Sure, we have more things. We have TVs and computers and cars and excercize bikes, and PS3s, and microwaves, and beepers and pagers and phones that make toast. But what we lack, more than any of our peers, is love. And that’s the thing we need the most.

    Ciao, JMJ

  48. Bring It On! Religion and Society » God, America, and Iraq said,

    [...] is an expurgated comment I posted on the Tygrrrr Express in reply to a fascinating character who goes by the moniker Hueguenot. The link I just added [...]

  49. hueguenot said,

    Wow, I made the big time, front page and everything.

    Heh, heh. Fascinating character, as in having something to say, or fascinating character like Wolf Boy at the carnival freak show? Hmmmm.

    I’m warning you now, this is going to sound kind of disjointed and rambling. It’s been a long day, it’s dinner time and my blood sugar is low. But here goes.

    The WMD thing was just a joke. Interestingly, though, in his book, Gen. Schwarzkopf defended Bush 41’s decision not to take out Saddam, and it was essentially the same thing Cheney said.

    Now, then. Let me get one thing out of the way quickly. When I said Americans lives are cush, I wasn’t really thinking of our “peers.” I was thinking more along the lines of the Sudanese I mentioned. If I want to go to sleep, I lay down on a 14″ thick mattress. If I want to stuff myself silly, I jump in my GMC pickup and drive on down to All-You-Can-Eat Shrimp Night at the local surf and turf. If my tooth hurts, I go to a dentist’s office, plunk down my co-pay and get worked on in novocained, laughing gassed, smooth jazz in the headphones comfort. And I don’t worry that government militiamen are going to bust down my door, rape my wife, send my children into slave labor and shoot me through the head. That’s the sense I meant it in. And I think the miseries you mention are mostly self-inflicted. We can choose to connect with other people. And I don’t see us lacking love compared to our peers at all. It’s everywhere, but it’s not the kind of thing that makes the evening news.

    Listening to your latest comments reminds me of a debate on Townhall regarding hunting. This one loopy liberal lady who shows up regularly for intellectual beat-downs decided to chime in. It was painfully obvious that she knew about as much on the subject as she does about the tactical deployment of the M203 infantry weapons system, but that didn’t stop her from categorically stating that all of the so-called wildlife-management benefits of hunting are just hooey, and that hunters hunt because they enjoy killing and kill. Huh? Come again? Holy crap, lady, where do I even begin?

    In this case, you’re reminding me of that lady, Jersey. You’re a knowledgeable guy, but when it comes to why I believe in God, you don’t know Jack. I know, maybe it’s tongue-in-cheek, but us people believe in God because we need an imaginary friend? On the simple-mindedness and ignorance scale, that’s like saying we invaded Iraq because the Army had spent all this money on boot laces and didn’t want them to go to waste. You think you have it all figured out, and you haven’t figured anything out. (Hope I’m not sounding agitated here).

    You’re wrong about why I believe. My own struggle is that my “personal relationship with God” is not personal enough. I’ve got plenty of intellectual assent, but it has a hard time reaching my heart. My faith is a matter of assent to the propositions set forth in the Bible. Do they make sense? Are they consistent? Do they ring true? Do they challenge my actions and make demands on me that make me uncomfortable? You would answer no. I say yes. Different presuppositions. I wonder if you’ve ever sat down with someone who has made a lifetime of studying the Bible and asking for help in understanding all those things that you find objectionable? Because it’s not easy to understand, and there is a definite spiritual component. If you go through the Bible convinced it is awful and genocidal and mean and rife with error and contradictions, then guess what? That’s exactly what you’ll find.

    You’re glad I’ve found an imaginary friend for company? Good. I’m glad that you’re able to avoid any claims or demands on your life, your heart, your behavior, your thoughts, your holiness, by a God who is not what you’d like him to be, by deciding he simply doesn’t exist. Presto!

  50. Hueguenot said,

    By the way, Jersey:

    I didn’t post the above thing on that other blog. I’m pretty confident in your ability to discuss things with a level head. Some of those other people I’ve read on there…not so sure. Not that I mind rebuttal or criticism. But if I want to be mocked, I’ll just dress myself for work without my wife’s approval.

    G’night.

  51. Jersey McJones said,

    Wolf boy! LOL!

    Actually, hunting has it’s ups and downs, but the downs, I believe, outweigh the ups. Personally, I’d like to see culling, by professionals, instead of hunting, by drunk, goofy hicks (yeah, I know, I’m just ribbing). And bow hunting is just cruel. I know many hunters, and most are just nice, regular guys. So the balance of ups and downs is close. But pro-culling would almost always be better all in all. Let me give you an example: In New Jersey, back in the colonial days, it was well known that the local deer were commonly huge and 8+ points was the norm. Now, the deer are all small and sickly. Part of that, of course, is the feeding on private gardens that are sprayed with poisons (I never eat venicin from the burbs, or exubian – it’s disgusting), but a larger part of the reason is that hunters don’t go out of their way to kill small sickly deer. They want points and big heads and meat. So they have weakened the gene pool of the local deer, and the deer numbers problem continues. I’d call that a failed policy. I do know about hunting. Though I prefer to fish. (Don’t even get me started on water pollution!)

    I get your point about “cushy.” Well taken. But your point about my understanding of faith, and why Americans are so much more religious than our peers misses the boat. Why are Americans so religious? Why is it so non-demoninational, personallized, and lacking in grounded theology? I believe it is because we lead very isolated, individualistic, hyper-competitive, stressful, lonely lives. That was the point I was making. The “imaginary friend” was a figure of speech – a metaphor of the lonely, only child for the American adult. I wasn’t mocking you, but rather asserting why I believe Americans in general are so religious, and so intrapersonal in their faith, as opposed to our peers. Again, though, these are intellectual generalities for the sake of debate. I would not even attempt to assert the reasoning of your personal faith, especially if it is “personal” and non-demoninational. I haven’t the hubris to attempt such a thing.

    As for Bringiton.org, it was created by a personal friend of mine, and yes it does have a liberal bent, but many conservatives post there. It gets a lot of hits, though, so I will occasionally cross-post there so that my site and sites like Eric’s get more hits too. It is far more raucus than this forum, true. But the mockery is all in fun. We dis each other endlessly. Think of it as more like “bar talk.” We cus, call each other morons, etc. It’s all in fun though. Quite a few of the posters personally know each other, so it’s not as abusive as it seems.

    JMJ

  52. Poison Ivy League Education — 2008 President election candidates said,

    [...] It started with grade inflation, where students pay their fee, get their B (average) ( source: Poison Ivy League Education, THE TYGRRRR [...]

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