Worked on KSM.
I wouldnt like torture if iy were performed on me.
But ! if I remember correctly McCain did crack.
http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/11/29/100012.shtml
“when McCain was held captive in a North Vietnamese prison camp – some of the same techniques were used on him. And – as McCain has publicly admitted at least twice – the torture worked!”
“The punishment finally worked, McCain said. “Eventually, I gave them my ship’s name and squadron number, and confirmed that my target had been the power plant.”
Dont know where you get your facts from Jersey but these are from his own book ” Faith of my fathers” where he admitts torture worked on him.
They used his own wounds against him and threatened to halt his medical treatment.
So, I dont see how you can say he proved torture doesnt work.
John Edwards received almost no money from Hollywood, which shows just how corporate Hollywood is. McCain will say anything to get elected. Despite saying torture doesn’t work he just voted to allow waterboarding. Republicans are immoral.
Jean.
Waterboarding I believe is torture . But its not invasive or painful or even harmful to the body. Its scary.
Who cares about Edwards or Hollywood.
Immoral ?
How many Dems voted for the war and then said they were against it ?
I think we can spread the ethical and immoral challenges around evenly on both sides.
Dont you ?
Sounds to me like he gave them nothing of value whatsoever, Micky. Besides, what could he have given them anyway? That’s really the whole point. You can’t squeeze blood from a stone. AQ is not a perfect hierarchical pyramid. It’s a cell system, whereby one group has no idea what the other is up to – or even who they are. On top of that, we are apparently to inept to keep anything secret anyway, so we’d best just behave like a First World people and disgusting slobs who torture people.
No, that is not the point. The point is that first he said it doesnt work and then he said it does.
Dont change points on me. Dont start your games.
YOU SAID that McCain proved torture doesnt work.
He himself said it did and even wrote this in his own book.
Go to the link, read the artyicle and McCains own quotes. You are wrong
JMJ;
“AQ is not a perfect hierarchical pyramid. It’s a cell system, whereby one group has no idea what the other is up to -”
So what ? More of them know each other than those that dont. And besides that we are not privy to intelligence that would make or defeat your arguement.
As if you even have a clue whats going on in the field.
JMJ;
” so we’d best just behave like a First World people and disgusting slobs who torture people.”
Yea. AQ is full of choir boys.
Bottom line is this.
It worked on KSM and its been proven ,and it saved countless lives and gave a treasure trove of info. He wouldnt say a thing untill the water started flowing.
And of course you’ll more than likely say the info was useless anyway and bla bla bla.
I’ve had this debate before and it ended up with you holding only your opinion while I had all the facts.
Saying the same thing over and over again works with your gang. Not me. So you can go through the whole thing again alone or with some other porr unsuspecting participant on this blog. But I do have some class and wont beat the same guy up twice.
Micky, we tried Japanese war criminals for waterboarding. Just how low do we have to sink, how many rights do we have to abuse, for this stupid, self-perpetuating, paranoid, war on terror?
That has nothing to do with the issue at hand as far as McCain goes.
But , I’ll amuse and indulge you anyway.
Waterboarding is probaly the least harmful method of info extraction there is.
You see it as low. Thats between you and your personal beliefs.
We hold a much higher standard on and off the field than these guys do.
From homicide bombers that look pregnant to IEDs to killing innocent bystanders. The list of unethical methods by the enemy goes on forever.
To argue how low we must go is not only ridiculous its over presumptive and degrading to our forces as if they are doing something wrong.
You guys say you support them but want now want to define their rules of engagement. To fit your passive and ineffective approach to fighting. Interogation is an engagement.
How many rights do we have to abuse ?
If its Americans you say are losing rights , I dont know of anyone who has lost any rights.
If its the enemy, who gives a rats ass. They certainly are not worried about ours or even their own peoples rights. Does bad behavior warrant more bad behavior ?
YES ! When someone is trying to kill you.
“Stupid self perpetuating” is just an opinion that has gotten you into more endless debates than I can remember.
Just remember that you too are also a victim of paranoia. And from my perspective its all ******* up because you fear your country and its leaders and principles more than you do those that want to kill you.
Anyway, in finishing.
McCain did not prove that torture doesnt work.
I dont know where you dug that up. Because he clearly says in his own writting and words that it worked on him. In plain english.
Slobbolas, just an opinion.
My opinion is that it makes us look like we mean business.
Theres nothing “low” about getting all the info we did out of KSM. Or the others.
But of course if you’re trying to make friends instead of win a war none of this would make any sense to you.
our opinion is just that, only an opinion.
We have been attacked many many times and they have attempted to do so again and have sworn they will.
The facts are real.
Your accusation of paranoia is just what you think. It is not real like the threat that has proven itself concrete and viable many times over.
McCain gave them nothing of any usefulness. Not only that, but when he had the chance to go home, he stuck with his comrades in captivity and remained until the end. McCain, unlike too many Americans these days, is a man of substance.
Stiil it doesnt change the fact that you were wrong in saying:
“A) He himself proved it doesn’t work ”
McCain and you have proved nothing.
I dont think McCain is opposed to the effectivness of torture as he is to his principle of not using it.
“I thought they were bluffing and refused to provide any information beyond my name, rank and serial number, and date of birth. They knocked me around a little to force my cooperation.”
The punishment finally worked, McCain said. “Eventually, I gave them my ship’s name and squadron number, and confirmed that my target had been the power plant.”
“I had learned what we all learned over there,” McCain said. “Every man has his breaking point. I had reached mine.”
That McCain broke under torture doesn’t make him any less of an American hero. But it does prove he’s wrong to claim that harsh interrogation techniques simply don’t work.
And I have never questioned John McCains integrity.
But I did question your abilty to be totally forthcoming on an issue and proved it to be otherwise.
I’d like to know when and where he said that torture doesnt work. Because in his own book he says it does.
“Nearly forty years ago, however – when McCain was held captive in a North Vietnamese prison camp – some of the same techniques were used on him. And – as McCain has publicly admitted at least twice – the torture worked!”
So once again, you’re arguement that torture doesnt work or that Mccain said so is now garbage.
Micky, if you want to torture people AQ is always looking for new recruits. You can sign up any time. If you want to be a civilized American, a beacon of human rights for the world to admire, then stick with people like McCain. I may not agree with a lot of his politics, but as a human being he is an unquestionably good and decent man.
I think hes a good man also.
But you’re still wrong.
He may say now that iy doesnt work , fine. But that is not what he said in 99. FACT!
And you said he proved it does not work.
Neither you or him has proven that torture does nbot work. FACT!
I read the article Jersey, so what ?
McCain is on record as saying twice that the torture worked on him.
But also what you failed to mention ( again) is that in your link it also says;
“McCain’s legislation would apply only to the Defense Department. It would not interfere with CIA’s disturbing practice of rendition – turning suspects over to foreign governments that routinely use torture. It would require all Defense Department personnel to treat prisoners in accordance with an Army field manual. It also would bar cruel, inhumane or degrading treatment of detainees in accordance with American law and international treaties”
Read that and think about it a little
Also…
It says nothing about nor does it even approach waterboarding. And his bill even still lets interogation go to other countries. It applies only to our Defense Department.
But , before I get carried into other subjects that are little relevance here.
The main issue is that you claimed McCain proved that torture doesnt work. Nothing could be further from the truth. No one has proved anything. Its just an opinion.
On the other hand it has been proven that torture/waterboarding worked on KSM. He said so himself. And even if he denied its effectivness the amount of info derived from his sessions speaks volumes to its effectivness.
And lay off the personal attack by suggesting I hook up with Al Queda.
That was stupid.
Also.
I never said that the info the North Vietnamese got from McCain was usefull. Did I ?
But the torture worked in getting that out of him. He felt it was important enough to withold it untill he got the crap beat out of him. He was not required to give up his target, but he did. At the time he thought that info was worth holding onto.
If I think McCain has made conflicting statements, thats fine. Maybe he has changed his mind on the issue and then thats all he has to say.
JMJ;
“If you want to be a civilized American, a beacon of human rights for the world to admire,”
I want to protect my country first. I’ll worry about what other people think about me last.
I am the least bit interested in being a “beacon of human rights” And if anyone deserves ” rights” Its the American people who have a right to be protected by their government. I hardly think that anyone in their right mind would place our ethics and ROE anywhere near those of our enemy. Please, stop the nonsense.
We are fighting a war, not a popularity contest.
McCain has been pandering to the right throughout this primary/caucus season. Something tells me he’ll change his tune once he’s in the Whitehouse. There’s even rumors of him picking a Dem (albeit a conservative Dem) for Veep. He’ll still be a hawk, but he’ll when he get his hawkishness up he’ll do it right, not half-heartedly and on the cheap like the current Failure in Chief. I like McCain, and like I said I might just vote for him (long story why, that I’m sure you don’t wat to hear).
Look, when it comes to “torture” and all that implies, I don’t have some perfect black line. The Russert ‘Nightmare Scenario” rubs that out (no adolesecnt innuendo intended). There is a time for everything under the sun, after all. Remember, FDR dealt with the German domestic threat quietly, with who knows what – and that’s the point. We don’t don’t know what. The Bush administration is too inept to get away with anything. With that in mind, its best they just stick to the book, so to speak.
Hopefully the next administration, whoever they are, will tend to things more tactfully, realistically, and necessarily. This bunch of morons we have running things now are just making everything worse – and making themselves look no better than our ostensible foes. Bush and the GOP just lost their biggest fight yet yesterday on the Hill. Their power has been checked. The duck is officially, finally, lame. If I were them, I’d stop fighting from the low-brow position. There’s nothing to gain from that crowd anymore. The low-brows will not determine the next president. Play to the better angels of the better voters.
Everthing you said has nothing to do with the fact that you and McCain have not proved that torture does not work.
But the facts I have displayed proved it does..
JMJ;
“Look, when it comes to “torture” and all that implies, I don’t have some perfect black line. ”
Most of the implications are based on your opinion.
To me it implies doing what we have to do.
To you it implies something bad.
But the F A C T is that it works.
That was just the most usless comment I’ve heard in a long time.
We use things in life only because we have seen that they work most of the time jersey.
But if course coming from you thats hilarious. The left seems to think that even if something doesnt work they can just keep saying it and it will.
You loose. You lost.
You made a statement that you cant back up.
Torture worked on KSM. This is fact , and relevant to this debate.
Torture worked on McCain, he is on record twice saying it. This is fact ,and relevant to this debate.
And you and McCain have not proved that torture does not work. This is fact , and relevant to this debate.
All issues have been clarified and settled by me.
Jersey McJones said,
February 15, 2008 at 11:58 am
I think McCain is against torture because A) He himself proved it doesn’t work and B) it makes Americans look like slobbolas.
JMJ
micky2 said,
February 15, 2008 at 12:28 pm
Worked on KSM.
I wouldnt like torture if iy were performed on me.
But ! if I remember correctly McCain did crack.
http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/11/29/100012.shtml
“when McCain was held captive in a North Vietnamese prison camp – some of the same techniques were used on him. And – as McCain has publicly admitted at least twice – the torture worked!”
“The punishment finally worked, McCain said. “Eventually, I gave them my ship’s name and squadron number, and confirmed that my target had been the power plant.”
Dont know where you get your facts from Jersey but these are from his own book ” Faith of my fathers” where he admitts torture worked on him.
They used his own wounds against him and threatened to halt his medical treatment.
So, I dont see how you can say he proved torture doesnt work.
jeanruss said,
February 15, 2008 at 12:48 pm
John Edwards received almost no money from Hollywood, which shows just how corporate Hollywood is. McCain will say anything to get elected. Despite saying torture doesn’t work he just voted to allow waterboarding. Republicans are immoral.
micky2 said,
February 15, 2008 at 1:13 pm
Jean.
Waterboarding I believe is torture . But its not invasive or painful or even harmful to the body. Its scary.
Who cares about Edwards or Hollywood.
Immoral ?
How many Dems voted for the war and then said they were against it ?
I think we can spread the ethical and immoral challenges around evenly on both sides.
Dont you ?
Jersey McJones said,
February 15, 2008 at 2:18 pm
Sounds to me like he gave them nothing of value whatsoever, Micky. Besides, what could he have given them anyway? That’s really the whole point. You can’t squeeze blood from a stone. AQ is not a perfect hierarchical pyramid. It’s a cell system, whereby one group has no idea what the other is up to – or even who they are. On top of that, we are apparently to inept to keep anything secret anyway, so we’d best just behave like a First World people and disgusting slobs who torture people.
JMJ
Jersey McJones said,
February 15, 2008 at 2:31 pm
Oops, “and not disgusting slobs who torture people.”
JMJ
micky2 said,
February 15, 2008 at 2:42 pm
No, that is not the point. The point is that first he said it doesnt work and then he said it does.
Dont change points on me. Dont start your games.
YOU SAID that McCain proved torture doesnt work.
He himself said it did and even wrote this in his own book.
Go to the link, read the artyicle and McCains own quotes. You are wrong
JMJ;
“AQ is not a perfect hierarchical pyramid. It’s a cell system, whereby one group has no idea what the other is up to -”
So what ? More of them know each other than those that dont. And besides that we are not privy to intelligence that would make or defeat your arguement.
As if you even have a clue whats going on in the field.
JMJ;
” so we’d best just behave like a First World people and disgusting slobs who torture people.”
Yea. AQ is full of choir boys.
Bottom line is this.
It worked on KSM and its been proven ,and it saved countless lives and gave a treasure trove of info. He wouldnt say a thing untill the water started flowing.
And of course you’ll more than likely say the info was useless anyway and bla bla bla.
I’ve had this debate before and it ended up with you holding only your opinion while I had all the facts.
Saying the same thing over and over again works with your gang. Not me. So you can go through the whole thing again alone or with some other porr unsuspecting participant on this blog. But I do have some class and wont beat the same guy up twice.
Jersey McJones said,
February 15, 2008 at 3:41 pm
Micky, we tried Japanese war criminals for waterboarding. Just how low do we have to sink, how many rights do we have to abuse, for this stupid, self-perpetuating, paranoid, war on terror?
JMJ
micky2 said,
February 15, 2008 at 4:57 pm
That has nothing to do with the issue at hand as far as McCain goes.
But , I’ll amuse and indulge you anyway.
Waterboarding is probaly the least harmful method of info extraction there is.
You see it as low. Thats between you and your personal beliefs.
We hold a much higher standard on and off the field than these guys do.
From homicide bombers that look pregnant to IEDs to killing innocent bystanders. The list of unethical methods by the enemy goes on forever.
To argue how low we must go is not only ridiculous its over presumptive and degrading to our forces as if they are doing something wrong.
You guys say you support them but want now want to define their rules of engagement. To fit your passive and ineffective approach to fighting. Interogation is an engagement.
How many rights do we have to abuse ?
If its Americans you say are losing rights , I dont know of anyone who has lost any rights.
If its the enemy, who gives a rats ass. They certainly are not worried about ours or even their own peoples rights. Does bad behavior warrant more bad behavior ?
YES ! When someone is trying to kill you.
“Stupid self perpetuating” is just an opinion that has gotten you into more endless debates than I can remember.
Just remember that you too are also a victim of paranoia. And from my perspective its all ******* up because you fear your country and its leaders and principles more than you do those that want to kill you.
Anyway, in finishing.
McCain did not prove that torture doesnt work.
I dont know where you dug that up. Because he clearly says in his own writting and words that it worked on him. In plain english.
Slobbolas, just an opinion.
My opinion is that it makes us look like we mean business.
Theres nothing “low” about getting all the info we did out of KSM. Or the others.
But of course if you’re trying to make friends instead of win a war none of this would make any sense to you.
our opinion is just that, only an opinion.
We have been attacked many many times and they have attempted to do so again and have sworn they will.
The facts are real.
Your accusation of paranoia is just what you think. It is not real like the threat that has proven itself concrete and viable many times over.
Jersey McJones said,
February 15, 2008 at 5:12 pm
McCain gave them nothing of any usefulness. Not only that, but when he had the chance to go home, he stuck with his comrades in captivity and remained until the end. McCain, unlike too many Americans these days, is a man of substance.
JMJ
micky2 said,
February 15, 2008 at 5:52 pm
Stiil it doesnt change the fact that you were wrong in saying:
“A) He himself proved it doesn’t work ”
McCain and you have proved nothing.
I dont think McCain is opposed to the effectivness of torture as he is to his principle of not using it.
“I thought they were bluffing and refused to provide any information beyond my name, rank and serial number, and date of birth. They knocked me around a little to force my cooperation.”
The punishment finally worked, McCain said. “Eventually, I gave them my ship’s name and squadron number, and confirmed that my target had been the power plant.”
“I had learned what we all learned over there,” McCain said. “Every man has his breaking point. I had reached mine.”
That McCain broke under torture doesn’t make him any less of an American hero. But it does prove he’s wrong to claim that harsh interrogation techniques simply don’t work.
And I have never questioned John McCains integrity.
But I did question your abilty to be totally forthcoming on an issue and proved it to be otherwise.
I’d like to know when and where he said that torture doesnt work. Because in his own book he says it does.
“Nearly forty years ago, however – when McCain was held captive in a North Vietnamese prison camp – some of the same techniques were used on him. And – as McCain has publicly admitted at least twice – the torture worked!”
So once again, you’re arguement that torture doesnt work or that Mccain said so is now garbage.
Mr. Fabulous said,
February 16, 2008 at 3:32 am
Telly Savalas is dead. Are you suggesting that we allow zombies to hold cabinet postions?
Jersey McJones said,
February 16, 2008 at 7:13 am
“Eventually, I gave them my ship’s name and squadron number, and confirmed that my target had been the power plant.”
Nothing. Useless.
“To those who say we should use any technique to obtain intelligence, McCain says: “Torture doesn’t work.” And he should know.”
http://www.sptimes.com/2005/07/29/Opinion/_Torture_doesn_t_work_.shtml
Micky, if you want to torture people AQ is always looking for new recruits. You can sign up any time. If you want to be a civilized American, a beacon of human rights for the world to admire, then stick with people like McCain. I may not agree with a lot of his politics, but as a human being he is an unquestionably good and decent man.
JMJ
micky2 said,
February 16, 2008 at 9:05 am
I think hes a good man also.
But you’re still wrong.
He may say now that iy doesnt work , fine. But that is not what he said in 99. FACT!
And you said he proved it does not work.
Neither you or him has proven that torture does nbot work. FACT!
I read the article Jersey, so what ?
McCain is on record as saying twice that the torture worked on him.
But also what you failed to mention ( again) is that in your link it also says;
“McCain’s legislation would apply only to the Defense Department. It would not interfere with CIA’s disturbing practice of rendition – turning suspects over to foreign governments that routinely use torture. It would require all Defense Department personnel to treat prisoners in accordance with an Army field manual. It also would bar cruel, inhumane or degrading treatment of detainees in accordance with American law and international treaties”
Read that and think about it a little
Also…
It says nothing about nor does it even approach waterboarding. And his bill even still lets interogation go to other countries. It applies only to our Defense Department.
But , before I get carried into other subjects that are little relevance here.
The main issue is that you claimed McCain proved that torture doesnt work. Nothing could be further from the truth. No one has proved anything. Its just an opinion.
On the other hand it has been proven that torture/waterboarding worked on KSM. He said so himself. And even if he denied its effectivness the amount of info derived from his sessions speaks volumes to its effectivness.
And lay off the personal attack by suggesting I hook up with Al Queda.
That was stupid.
micky2 said,
February 16, 2008 at 9:35 am
Also.
I never said that the info the North Vietnamese got from McCain was usefull. Did I ?
But the torture worked in getting that out of him. He felt it was important enough to withold it untill he got the crap beat out of him. He was not required to give up his target, but he did. At the time he thought that info was worth holding onto.
If I think McCain has made conflicting statements, thats fine. Maybe he has changed his mind on the issue and then thats all he has to say.
JMJ;
“If you want to be a civilized American, a beacon of human rights for the world to admire,”
I want to protect my country first. I’ll worry about what other people think about me last.
I am the least bit interested in being a “beacon of human rights” And if anyone deserves ” rights” Its the American people who have a right to be protected by their government. I hardly think that anyone in their right mind would place our ethics and ROE anywhere near those of our enemy. Please, stop the nonsense.
We are fighting a war, not a popularity contest.
Jersey McJones said,
February 16, 2008 at 1:16 pm
McCain has been pandering to the right throughout this primary/caucus season. Something tells me he’ll change his tune once he’s in the Whitehouse. There’s even rumors of him picking a Dem (albeit a conservative Dem) for Veep. He’ll still be a hawk, but he’ll when he get his hawkishness up he’ll do it right, not half-heartedly and on the cheap like the current Failure in Chief. I like McCain, and like I said I might just vote for him (long story why, that I’m sure you don’t wat to hear).
Look, when it comes to “torture” and all that implies, I don’t have some perfect black line. The Russert ‘Nightmare Scenario” rubs that out (no adolesecnt innuendo intended). There is a time for everything under the sun, after all. Remember, FDR dealt with the German domestic threat quietly, with who knows what – and that’s the point. We don’t don’t know what. The Bush administration is too inept to get away with anything. With that in mind, its best they just stick to the book, so to speak.
Hopefully the next administration, whoever they are, will tend to things more tactfully, realistically, and necessarily. This bunch of morons we have running things now are just making everything worse – and making themselves look no better than our ostensible foes. Bush and the GOP just lost their biggest fight yet yesterday on the Hill. Their power has been checked. The duck is officially, finally, lame. If I were them, I’d stop fighting from the low-brow position. There’s nothing to gain from that crowd anymore. The low-brows will not determine the next president. Play to the better angels of the better voters.
JMJ
micky2 said,
February 16, 2008 at 1:40 pm
Everthing you said has nothing to do with the fact that you and McCain have not proved that torture does not work.
But the facts I have displayed proved it does..
JMJ;
“Look, when it comes to “torture” and all that implies, I don’t have some perfect black line. ”
Most of the implications are based on your opinion.
To me it implies doing what we have to do.
To you it implies something bad.
But the F A C T is that it works.
Jersey McJones said,
February 16, 2008 at 2:12 pm
Nothing works all the time, Micky. That’s life.
JMJ
micky2 said,
February 16, 2008 at 2:38 pm
That was just the most usless comment I’ve heard in a long time.
We use things in life only because we have seen that they work most of the time jersey.
But if course coming from you thats hilarious. The left seems to think that even if something doesnt work they can just keep saying it and it will.
You loose. You lost.
You made a statement that you cant back up.
Torture worked on KSM. This is fact , and relevant to this debate.
Torture worked on McCain, he is on record twice saying it. This is fact ,and relevant to this debate.
And you and McCain have not proved that torture does not work. This is fact , and relevant to this debate.
All issues have been clarified and settled by me.
See ya.
Bald-Headed Geek said,
February 20, 2008 at 3:40 pm
I knew it!!!!!
American voters are anti-Baldites!!!!
BHG