To Moveon.org, with luv, Osama

September 17, 2007 at 1:26 pm (POLITICS)

I was disturbed to accidentally come across this letter from Osama Bin Laden to Moveon.org.

http://www.tygrrrrexpress.com/2007/09/to-moveonorg-with-luv-osama/

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88 Comments

  1. fitnessfortheoccasion said,

    The Neocons are Jews, and they control the world after all. Yet you went too far. You started attacking moderate democrats such as Joe Lieberman. Then you went after liberals, even attacking Hillary Clinton.

    You sir, are hilarious. Bush and Cheney are observant Jews, true, but calling Republican Senator Joe Lieberman a “moderate Democrat” and conservative Democrat Hillary Clinton “liberal” is deft! Well done sir!

    You really messed up when you called General David Petraeus “General Betray Us.”

    Especially here. “Buying” into the “fact” that criticizing a general for putting politics above sound military advice is a mistake. Hilarious. Yet it needed to be said. There may be liberals out there who think taking strategic advice from conservatives is a good idea.

    Keep up the fun.

  2. micky2 said,

    Eric, post this at the Kos or H. Post, think they’ll leave it up ?

  3. Tim Schieferecke said,

    Hi Eric. That was a great post! My name is Tim Schieferecke, and you contacted me a month or so ago about my Townhall article “Hillary and Human Incentive”. I left a message on my Townhall blog for you, but not here where I should have. My bad. I would be honored to exchange links with you, and will put yours up on my site tonight. Check out http://www.panderingpoliticos.com to see other examples of my work. I am currently writing my first book of illustrated conservative thought and humor and I would welcome any critique or criticism. Liberals have had a stranglehold over illustrated and humorous politics for far too long, and I see a clear opening for my conservative talents to help fill this gap. My personal e-mail is tcschieferecke@prodigy.net. I’ll put your site’s link up on mine tonight.
    Tim Schieferecke

  4. Jersey McJones said,

    As usual, it is a very, very clever post, eric. We may be on opposite side of the political spectrum, and I may be one hellacious debator, but my hat’s always tipped for you.

    A couple of thoughts…

    “…90% of the people in the Islamic world against (OBL)…”

    Where’d you get that from? I’d love to see that stat. It would be quite the reaffirmation of my faith in mankind!

    “…one of my heroes, Noam Chomsky…” ???

    Somehow I find it hard to believe that post-mod liberal progressives like Chomsky would be heroes to Theo-Fascists like OBL. What happened to “They hate our freedom”?

    “We have similar goals, which is to bring about the destruction of America as a religious nation founded on Judeo-Christian values.”

    If you read the Bible, you’ll find that the rhetoric is about the same as in the Quran. Don’t you think that they would actually prefer that we did live by those “values”? But also, don’t you think that people like OBL really couldn’t care less about our “values” and are really more concerned with bring about a new Islamic Empire from Morrocco to Indonesia? If I’m not mistaken, the USA is not located within that geography.

    I think OBL just loves Republicans, and that’s why so many GOP pundits and Pols ahve decided that it’s better to distance themsleves from “conservatism,” neo-conservatism,” and the Republican Party in general, preferring “Libertarian” and “True Conservative” as tags. The GOP has given the 9/11 terrorists everything they wanted – perpetual war with Islamic world, uniting the people against a common enemy. It’s the oldest political trick in The Book – all three of them.

    Great post, though. The wit runeth over. But the assumptions make me wonder.

    JMJ

  5. Cody said,

    “If you read the Bible, you’ll find that the rhetoric is about the same as in the Quran.”

    actually, the Bible has nowhere near the rhetoric the Quran does. there are a few stories that are repeated more than a few times, however, statistics show that if the Quran had no repetitions, it would be less that 1/3 its currnent length.

    “…people like OBL…are really more concerned with bring about a new Islamic Empire from Morrocco to Indonesia?”

    actually no. see, they attacked us. they attacked us because we dont follow a theocracy, and especially their theocracy.

    “The GOP has given the 9/11 terrorists…perpetual war with Islamic world…”

    actually, they were at war long before we invaded. they’ve been at war for almost 1400 years.

    “uniting the people against a common enemy.”

    yes, they are united against a common enemy. the enemy? Osama Bin Laden.

    anyway, done with my arguments. great post, man. 🙂

  6. Tom Kihs said,

    I read this with interest and while I know that it is a spoof!
    I don’t think that the author is to far off with the assessment of moveon.org,I view them as dangerous to the people of the United States as Osama Bin Laden,Chavez,Iran, Syria or North Korea!

  7. Jersey McJones said,

    Cody, really, just read the Bible. There are plenty of similarities. Remember, the Quran is in fact based on the Bible. It may not be quite the literary work, but the central precepts are the same. The only difference is current history. Most Christians and Jews today simply ignore the parts of the Bible that a civilized Western society would find abhorant today, while a few too many Muslim are acting on aspects of the Quran that most people find unacceptable. That’s it. That’s the difference.

    And don’t be so self-centered. The whole world doesn’t revolve on your way of life. Most people on the Earth reall don’t give a rat’s ass about you or your religion or your country. They have their own lives and agendas. They attacked us to draw us into a conflict. It worked. They knew that there were enough people like you that would take the bait. You let your pride get ahead of your logic. Islamists aren’t stupid enough to believe that they can convert or destroy the United States and the West. Following your psuedologic, why didn’t they attack China, or India, or Africa? The concentrated their attacks on us and our interests and our allies. This was obviously intentional. Again, you let your pride get ahead of your logic. You were OBL’s target audience.

    JMJ

  8. GunnyG said,

    “They attacked us to draw us into a conflict. It worked.”

    WTF! What would YOU have done, asked them nicely not to do it again?

    For someone who says that they’ve read “Milestones” and the Quran” you sure don’t have a very good grasp of radical Islam.

    Looks like someone is FINALLY chronicling the left’s love affair with terrorists.

    http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=57674

  9. GunnyG said,

    How Jersey would handle terrorism against the USA.

    1993.

    Terrorists: World Trade Center Bombing, February 26, 1993: The World Trade Center in New York City was badly damaged when a car bomb planted by Islamic terrorists exploded in an underground garage. The bomb left 6 people dead and 1,000 injured. The men carrying out the attack were followers of Umar Abd al-Rahman, an Egyptian cleric who preached in the New York City area.

    Jersey: Stop it will you?

    Terrorists: Attempted Assassination of former President Bush by Iraqi Agents, April 14, 1993: The Iraqi intelligence service attempted to assassinate former U.S. President George Bush during a visit to Kuwait. In retaliation, the U.S. launched a cruise missile attack 2 months later on the Iraqi capital Baghdad.

    Jersey: Guys, I’m not kidding here.

    Terrorists: Attack on U.S. Diplomats in Pakistan, March 8, 1995: Two unidentified gunmen killed two U.S. diplomats and wounded a third in Karachi, Pakistan.

    Jersey: This is your last warning. Stop it.

    Terrorists: November 13, 1995: The Islamic Movement of Change planted a bomb in a Riyadh military compound that killed one U.S. citizen, several foreign national employees of the U.S. government, and over 40 others.

    Jersey: Don’t make me come down there.

    Terrorists: Khobar Towers Bombing, June 25, 1996: A fuel truck carrying a bomb exploded outside the US military’s Khobar Towers housing facility in Dhahran, killing 19 U.S. military personnel and wounding 515 persons, including 240 U.S. personnel. Several groups claimed responsibility for the attack.

    Jersey: Hey, I said knock it off or else.

    Terrorists: U.S. Embassy Bombings in East Africa, August 7, 1998: A bomb exploded at the rear entrance of the U.S. Embassy in Nairobi, Kenya, killing 12 U.S. citizens, 32 Foreign Service Nationals (FSNs), and 247 Kenyan citizens. Approximately 5,000 Kenyans, 6 U.S. citizens, and 13 FSNs were injured. The U.S. Embassy building sustained extensive structural damage. Almost simultaneously, a bomb detonated outside the U.S. Embassy in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, killing 7 FSNs and 3 Tanzanian citizens, and injuring 1 U.S. citizen and 76 Tanzanians. The explosion caused major structural damage to the U.S. Embassy facility. The U.S. Government held Usama Bin Laden responsible.

    Jersey: Ok. That’s it. One more time and you’re in deep trouble.

    Terrorists: Attack on U.S.S. Cole, October 12, 2000: In Aden, Yemen, a small dingy carrying explosives rammed the destroyer U.S.S. Cole, killing 17 sailors and injuring 39 others. Supporters of Usama Bin Laden were suspected.

    Jersey: I guess you didn’t hear me. I said stop it or else.

    Terrorists: Manila Bombing, December 30, 2000: A bomb exploded in a plaza across the street from the U.S. Embassy in Manila, injuring nine persons. The Moro Islamic Liberation Front was likely responsible.

    Jersey: Okay, that it. Now I’m cutting off your funding.

    Terrorists: Terrorist Attacks on U.S. Homeland, September 11, 2001: Two hijacked airliners crashed into the twin towers of the World Trade Center. Soon thereafter, the Pentagon was struck by a third hijacked plane. A fourth hijacked plane, suspected to be bound for a high-profile target in Washington, crashed into a field in southern Pennsylvania. The attacks killed 3,025 U.S. citizens and other nationals. President Bush and Cabinet officials indicated that Usama Bin Laden was the prime suspect and that they considered the United States in a state of war with international terrorism. In the aftermath of the attacks, the United States formed the Global Coalition Against Terrorism.

    Jersey: C’mon guys, please stop. That really hurt us and we’re trying to understand how you feel about us. Can we meet at the UN to discuss this whole problem? Please? I mean, really.

    For more information on how Clinton’s inability to confront Global Terrorism INCREASED the problem:

    http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/pubs/fs/5902.htm

  10. Jersey McJones said,

    Gunny, I’d have sent 300,000 troops into Afghanistan and bring that nation into the 21st century. I’d have continued the status quo with Saddam until I could find a way to covertly topple him. I’d have brought our allies into the Afghan effort and use them, intelligence, law enforcement, and covert military operations to route out and destroy terror cells. I would not have half-assed invaded Iraq.

    JMJ

  11. Jersey McJones said,

    Oh, and I wouldn’t even wipe my tushy with Worldnetdaily.

    JMJ

  12. GunnyG said,

    Jersey,

    300K? Did we have that many after the Clinton years?

    Yeah worldnetdaily, less reliable than CNN? Dan Blather and Memogate? Rueters and the faked polar bear pic? I don’t think so but I judge on facts while you are judging them from a religious viewpoint.

  13. micky2 said,

    Covertly go after Saddam ? LOL
    The guy couldnt find himself half the time.
    Ask any American journalist what it was like to get anywhere near the guy.

    Too much Jack Bauer Jersey ?

  14. micky2 said,

    Jersey said;
    “covert military operations to route out and destroy terror cells. I would not have half-assed invaded Iraq.”
    Terror cells are a dime a dozen Jersey.
    As far as Afghanistan goes, you would have to be a very convincing goat to infiltrate a cave.
    Everyone has great answers after the fact.
    I would of this , I would of that,
    Think about how dumb that is.
    We beat up our politicians for doing the same thing. You know?, the “armchair after the fact generals! “

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  16. Jersey McJones said,

    Gunny, worldnetdaily is pathetic. Yes, we had 300K to go in after Clinton. We don’t now.

    Micky, I find “24” about as interesting as a tree stump. I don’t watch that sort of TV. We have a long inglorious history of covertly toppling and installing regimes. Read about it. (Though I doubt this administartion would have enough competence to topple a miniature Carribean island nation)

    My answers have always been the same. Ask the goofballs over at Hannity’s boards. I told them all this before the wars started.

    JMJ

  17. Cody said,

    “Cody, really, just read the Bible. There are plenty of similarities.”

    I never said there weren’t similarities, all I said was that there are less repetitions than there are in the Quran. Oh, and by the way, I have read the Bible, and the Quran.

    “Remember, the Quran is in fact based on the Bible.”

    Actually, the Quran is not based on the Bible in any way. They both parallel in many areas, but the Quran is in no way based on the bible.

    “Most Christians and Jews today simply ignore the parts of the Bible that a civilized Western society would find abhorrent today…”

    I would glad if you could share some of these parts.

    “And don’t be so self-centred. The whole world doesn’t revolve on your way of life. Most people on the Earth really don’t give a rat’s ass about you or your religion or your country.”

    Well, first of all, my religion and way of life had nothing to do with the issue until you brought it up. And, actually, if nobody gave a rat’s ass, then this country wouldn’t be great.

    “Following your psuedologic, why didn’t they attack China, or India, or Africa? The concentrated their attacks on us and our interests and our allies.

    Actually, they’ve concentrated their attacks mostly on us. And to answer your question, they didn’t attack China, because it is not free. They did not attack Africa, or India because they are mostly Islamic. This is why they attacked us, because we do not follow Sharia law, as they would have it. However, their interpretation of Islam is a sick and twisted one, for the Quran states: “…Allah does not love the aggressors.”

    “Again, you let your pride get ahead of your logic.”

    Well, I got to this conclusion from my logic, not by pride. Had I followed my pride, my conclusion would have been that, well first of all, they wouldn’t have attacked me anyway because no one hates me. Second, if I had followed my pride, I would think that I can talk them out of attacking me. By logic, we must fight. The bully won’t stop hitting until you hit harder.

    “Though I doubt this administration would have enough competence to topple a miniature Caribbean island nation.”

    Really? History shows that we toppled Saddam’s regime, and I should think that Saddam’s regime is much more powerful than a little island.

  18. Cody said,

    By the way, I love the show “24”.

  19. GunnyG said,

    2003 active duty 1,389,700 reserves 863,000 = 2252700

    2006 active duty 1,426,710 reserves 858,500 = 2285210

    From 2003-2006 US armed forces have grown by 32,510 personnel. Hmm, a shooting war and the numbers of a VOLUNTEER armed forces goes UP.

    http://www.defenselink.mil/

    “worldnetdaily is pathetic”

    Why, because they point out the lies from the Godless left?

  20. GunnyG said,

    TWO awesome stories coming out of Iraq that you WILL NOT read on the Lamestream Media.

    http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/sep2007/a091707wm2.html
    11 y.o. Iraqi gets it.

    http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=47453
    Improved quality of life and security for Iraqis.

  21. Jersey McJones said,

    Cody, the Quran is based on the Bible. This is why Muslims refer to Christians, Jews and themselves as People of the Book. As for what is ignored in the Bible, just try Leviticus on for size. And India and Africa are mostly Islamic??? Really??? And what I meant by “toppling” regimes was “covertly.” Really, man, you’re not up this.

    Gunny, there are not enough troops now to fight a major war. They are spent. Used up. Exhausted. We had ready numbers at the onset of the wars, but Rummy decided it would be politically palatable to attempt to fight on the cheap. You get what you pay for. And you don’t “fight a war with what you have.” You get more. And 32,510 more is a pathetic number for that long of a period.

    If this war were truly necessary and wanted, we’d have a draft today.

    As for worldnetdaily, I’ve seen more professionalism at a peewee hockey game.

    JMJ

  22. GunnyG said,

    Jersey,

    “Uh, do you have any FACTS to back that up? Or you just pumping out bilge water?”

    Funny, I am around troops ALL DAY long, HERE IN IRAQ, and they don’t look spent or tired to me. But when I go running with some of the troops in the AM, I’ll relay your fears that they’re spent and tired.

    “And 32,510 more is a pathetic number for that long of a period.”

    Really? Then maybe you can get the Fed Law changed to permit more on active duty. You see, the Marine Corps has had to request PERMISSION from Congress to go OVER THEIR QUOTA in reenlistments and extensions every year since 2003. I’m sure that the Commandant would appreciate you petitioning Congress for this. That’s ONE LESS thing form him to deal with.

    Also, I wonder why troops who have lost a limb or eye STILL demand to stay on active duty. In a shooting ar no less. SO tired and spent……..

  23. Cody said,

    As for “why Muslims refer to Christians, Jews and themselves as People of the Book.”
    This is simply untrue. The Quran states that “the worst enemies of believers are the Jews.”
    As for Christians, the Quran says “Pagans indeed are those who say that Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary.”

    Gunny, my prayers are with you.

  24. Cody said,

    The Quran also says “You shall not say ‘Trinity.’ You shall refrain from this for your own good. Allah is only one god.”

  25. micky2 said,

    Yea Jersey, I remember when The “A” Team was popular.
    It was your typical lib hero show. Guns a firin all the time. But did you know that no one ever got shot in any “A” Team episode? sounds like your kinda show.

    Jersey said;
    “We have a long inglorious history of covertly toppling and installing regimes.”

    The US cant do anything right, can they ? If there was bloodshed you would find some way to bitch about that too.

    You said;
    “(Though I doubt this administartion would have enough competence to topple a miniature Carribean island nation) ”
    Iraq is slightly bigger than any island in the Atlantic.

    Calm down man, your loosing it.

  26. Jersey McJones said,

    Gunny, that first quote wasn’t from me. The second one was, though, and if you look up the stats, you’ll see that I’m spot on.

    Cody, it is a FACT that all these peoples are known as “People of the Book.” Muslims, like Christians, simply think that the Jews have forsaken their Chosen status. As for the Trinity, it’s the same way Protestants view the Bible.

    Guys, taks a breath, have a snifter, and come up with some better arguments.

    JMJ

  27. Cody said,

    I hate posting 3 consecutive comments, especially when 2 are really short.

    “”And what I meant by ‘toppling’ regimes was ‘covertly.’ ”

    What is the difference? Toppling is toppling. And why covertly? I could see why, if you mean that you don’t want a war. However a covert operation might have less deaths initially, but in the end (if you only take out Saddam) the Saddam loyalists would retaliate in full measure. The only way to have a successful covert operation would be to take out every single Islamo-facist. Realistically, however this is impossible.

  28. Jersey McJones said,

    “What is the difference?”

    2 1/2 trillion dollars, and countless lives ruined.

    “The only way to have a successful covert operation would be to take out every single Islamo-facist.”

    It was Richard Hofstadter who once said of the paranoid rightwing that to them “the enemy is thought of being totally evil and totally unappeasable and he must be totally eliminated.” Hitler, Stalin and Mao thought like that, too. Do you really want to think like that?

    There’s more than one way to accomplish a goal, Cody. Not everything is a simple Socratic exclusivity of duality.

    JMJ

  29. micky2 said,

    Better to be paranoid of Radical Islamic Jihadist than falling ice bergs.
    Hitler, Stalin and Mao were not attacked unprovoked, they all asked for it.
    America has good reason to be afraid.

    But quite frankly I’m really sick to death of listening to those who deny whats going on.
    I’m sick to death of the arguement that America is evil and its all our fault and we cant do anything right and everyone second guesses everything and has abetter plan in hindsight.
    What a bunch of freaking jerks.
    We are were we are at ! All your back and forth moaning and groaning and tid bits of history that fit in to only your agenda only are incredibly predictable and mundane already.
    No body really knows whats going on as much as any of them think they do, you know why ? Because we are in the middle of a war and any idiot can figure out that nobody in a war is going to tell why, what ,when ,or how they are going to do anything. Because you have to have some secrecy or else your toast.
    The best thing any of us can do is to have faith in the fact that even with all its mistakes America does want to protect its own, and you and everyone else should support the effort based on the reality that success would be a lot more attainable if you offerd support insted of pissing in everything in your path.

    My mom landscaped her yard, and half way through I saw it was a disater. Instead of tearing it all apart with words on how I would of done it, I helped her finish what she had started and we got the job done in half the time than if we sat there and bickerd like kids. I tweaked her yard a little in the end and it was sweet and everyone was happy.
    Come up with some ideas already and meet half way ,because obviously none of you are going to change your mind .
    You go back into time only prove reason for your justifications and to win your arguement.
    If any of you really gave two rats ass’s about our soldiers you would try to think of and post a solution, because you never know whos reading guys. You never know who might pick it up and run with it.
    Try something like that for a change.

  30. Cody said,

    “’What is the difference?’
    2 1/2 trillion dollars, and countless lives ruined.”

    Ok, good point, I didn’t happen to think of that at the time.

    “the paranoid rightwing that to them ‘the enemy is thought of being totally evil and totally unappeasable and he must be totally eliminated.’ Hitler, Stalin and Mao thought like that, too. Do you really want to think like that?”

    Well, the enemy is unappeasable, they have said so themselves. They have also said that the only way to end the war, is either to join with their view of Islam, or eliminate them entirely. And, yes these contemptible, evil people may have thought like, that, but here’s the thing: they were right. This is why a World War was fought. As for this Mao character, I don’t specifically know who you are talking about. And yes, I would like to think like that. It makes life easier, and it makes sense logically. The only situation where it would not be a good idea, would be: if, say OBL wanted to appease with his fellow Muslims who now oppose him.

    “Not everything is a simple Socratic exclusivity of duality.”

    But why not? Waahhhh! Ok, seriously now, true, not EVERYTHING is black/white, but in the issue of good and evil, for most people it is.

    —————————————————————————————————————————

    “We are were we are at ! All your back and forth moaning and groaning and tid bits of history that fit in to only your agenda only are incredibly predictable and mundane already.”

    Well said.

    “You go back into time only prove reason for your justifications and to win your argument. If any of you really gave two rats ass’s about our soldiers you would try to think of and post a solution…”

    Yes, giving a solution would be a lot more helpful, but to agree on a solution, we must first agree on how why our solution would be more helpful than someone else’s. And to agree on that, we must agree on why we are in the current situation in the first place. (sometimes)

    Also, if we continue this argument/debate, it might be a good idea to do it by one-on-one correspondence, as to not waste Eric’s comment space, and because, it is really only between us, and like micky2 said, people will get tired of our bickering, but I’m sure that we won’t. (I won’t, at least)

  31. GunnyG said,

    Jersey,

    Countless lives ruined? You mean like that bogus figure ANSWER throws out to the lib sheep every now and then? Even the Iraqi officials I see in briefs only state about 90,000 IF THAT.

    On the OTHER hand, TENS OF MILLIONS of Iraqis have had their quality of life raised and women can walk the streets without having to worry about being gang-raped by Usay and Qusay. Men don’t have to worry about being rnu through a plastic shredder feet first anymore. People are getting electricity and CLEAN RUNNING water into their houses for the first time in the HISTORY OF IRAQ.

    And all you libturds can do is whine about money.

    We’re bringing a 12th century nation into the 21st and they’ll be a better ally than you fifth columnists ever were. In fact, if there was a war between the Iraqis and American liberals, I’d fight with the Iraqis, THEY ARE BETTER PEOPLE THAN YOU ARE!

  32. Jersey McJones said,

    Gunny, you’re being judgemental. Remember what the Good Book said. And remember, we libs would rather pay our bills than put them on our children. Enjoy your wartime tax breaks.

    90,000 dead Iraqis, 3,800 more dead Americans, 25,000 disabled Americans, total projected costs at 2 1/2 trillion? No. It was not worth it to go into Iraq. At that price, I’d rather fight them here then there.

    Cody, what I meant about Socrates was that multiple seemingly contradictory things can be true of one thing. Seemingly being the key word there. Going into Iraq was a mistake. Most Americans are realizing that now. It may well be too late to fix that mistake and I am quite certain that we are only less safe now because of this. For example, tae Afghanistan. The herione now flowing from that country (once surpressed by the terrible Taliban, now funding them) will kill more Americans than the terrorists could with a nuke. And the money from that disease of a drug is bringing the Taliban right back, madder than ever, and ready to help the OBL gang again. I just don’t have a good answer for what to do because I really don’t think there is one now. All we can do is get on with what we should have in the first place – intelligence, allies, law enforcement, and covert ops. Sometimes defense is the best defense.

    JMJ

  33. Cody said,

    Gunny, I have to agree with Jersey. You are getting a little defensive and judgmental.
    You have to admit, 90,000 is a pretty large number.

    “Enjoy your wartime tax breaks.”

    While I do enjoy tax breaks, they are not coming from the liberals. I have not heard of a liberal plan yet that would actually decrease taxes.

    “Cody, what I meant about Socrates was that multiple seemingly contradictory things can be true of one thing.”

    You may have to explain what you mean here, although I think I may get it. It’s early morning here, so give me some slack. Well 8:00 is early for me.

    “Going into Iraq was a mistake. Most Americans are realizing that now.”

    Most Americans wanted us to go to Iraq. Virtually 100% of the american people were behind Bush when he announced the war. Now, you may think that specifically going into Iraq was a mistake, and that we should have stayed in Pakistan, or Afghanistan, but that is another debate entirely.

    “For example, take Afghanistan.”

    My knowledge of the war doesn’t go far beyond Iraq. I have some on Iran, but I don’t have much knowledge on the war other than that.

    “Sometimes defencse is the best defense.”

    Again, well said.

    Also, a covert mission might sound good at the outset, but it would be expensive also. for the gear (night vision, silencers, sniper rifles). It would also take a while to come up with a plan, and it would cost some money to have secret meetings to keep the mission covert. And then, if the mission failed, if the government denied the mission, it would cost money to cover it up. In the end, it may not work.

  34. GunnyG said,

    Jersey,

    “Sometimes defense is the best defense?”

    What expertise are you basing that on? A good defense doesn’t stop the enemy from building up. Please point out to me where a good defense EVER stopped aggression. Please. From the Walls of Jericho to the Maginot Line to the Seigfried Line to ridgeline defenses in Korea, obstacles are easily overcome.

    al-Qaeda has people already INSIDE the USA. They call them sleeper cells. How are you going to defend against that?

    What’s your great plan on defending everything everywhere? A cop on every bridge? NG along the border? CCTV cameras on every street corner with directional mikes like the Brits have?

    Hell, you liberals were whining up a storm that the Minutemen actually started to do the fed’s work to secure the border.

    In the counterterrorism/antiterrorism world I work in, we have a saying:

    “They only have to get lucky once, we have to be lucky every time!”

    Wartime taxbreaks?

    I think we earn them. If you had the balls to be where I am, you’d earn them as well. Also, be advised that the IRS allows for income made overseas to be exempt for the first 90K. That’s for everyone. Want it? Get a job overseas otherwise quit crying.

    As far as tax breaks go, I agree with Cody. Hillary is ALREADY talking about MANDATORY health care and that we MUST show PROOF before we can get a job, etc. What’s next libs? The mark of the beast on us to buy bread?

    Don’t believe me?
    http://noliberalspin.townhall.com/g/53372440-1a1d-431c-b2f9-7188151dcf0a

    Eric, be advised. I lambasted Hillary there showing her true NSDAP roots.

  35. Cody said,

    “As for what is ignored in the Bible, just try Leviticus on for size.”

    I can’t say why Jews have done away with Levitical Law, however the Christians have done away with I, because it is no longer relevant. Jesus fulfilled the Law, and now the only law is to “Believe in God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength.”

    “As for the Trinity, it’s the same way Protestants view the Bible.”

    NOT AT ALL. You really need a better source on Christianity. There is not a denomination that I know of that rejects the concept of the Trinity at all. The Trinity is one of the central concepts of Christianity.

    “Cody, it is a FACT that all these people are known as ‘People of the Book’”

    I find it interesting that you completely ignore those quotes from the Quran, which say that they are not. The Quran also states that the Jews and the Christians are unbelievers, and that they are blasphemers. It says that “Allah condemns them. They have surely deviated.” The Christians do not believe at all that the Jews have forsaken their Chosen Status.

    Also, if you talk to a Muslim from the Middle East, their perception is that all of America is Christian, and this is why some of them fight Jihad.

  36. micky2 said,

    J said;
    “we libs would rather pay our bills than put them on our children”

    Oh——–my————–God
    I’m sorry, I have to laugh at that one. Status quo leads any one to know its the other way around Jersey. Libs want want everyone but themselves to pay for anything.

    I realized I just posted about bickering, but I just cant leave that one alone.
    You might want to rethink it or rephrase it

  37. Jersey McJones said,

    Cody,

    You said, “While I do enjoy tax breaks, they are not coming from the liberals. I have not heard of a liberal plan yet that would actually decrease taxes.”

    I was saying that cutting taxes in wartime and borrowing money to pay for that war is a disgusting display of greed and apapthy. It’s all well and fine to decrease taxes, but if you don’t decrease spending then all you’re doing is passing the cost off to our children. When you study the history of the great Western empires (1st British, France, Spain), you see that war-debt is the number one cause of their eventual collapse. We would never had won the Revolutionary War had Britain had the money to put into quelling us. They were so bogged down by war-debt, that France was able to hand them a stinging defeat by proxy in that war and the British had to rebuild the entire empire from scratch over the next century. In all our history, not once did we lower taxes in a time of war. We are going to rape our children and grandchildren with the costs from this one.

    I said, “Cody, what I meant about Socrates was that multiple seemingly contradictory things can be true of one thing.”

    You said, “You may have to explain what you mean here, although I think I may get it. It’s early morning here, so give me some slack. Well 8:00 is early for me.”

    Okay, I hear ya’. What I meant is this: Whenever I argue with the pro-Bush-war people they seem to be saying that somehow this is an all or nothing game – that Bush’s way of approaching the “GWOT” is the only way, and that to suggest anything else is to suggest we simply throw up our hands and convert to Islam. It strickes me as exteremly narrow minded. There’s more than one way to do most things. I know this guy, true story. He’s over at my house one day and we decide to have hot dogs. So, it’s raining out, so no grill. So I get out a frying pan, add a little oil, and start browning the franks a little, before I add the beer and saurkraut. As soon as I add the dogs he shouts, “Hey! What are you doing? That’s not the way to make franks!” I’m thinking to myself, “Geez, dude, you could eat them as is if you wanted. Since when is there only one way to make a frank???” But I don’t want to argue, so I continue. Time to prepare the franks. He grabs a couple, buns, ’em, etc. I do the same, and start putting ketchup and msutard on mine. “Ketchup AND mustard,” he says, “What, are you nuts?” Fimmaly, I lose it. I say, “What are you the @#$% hot dog police? Is there only one way to make a @#$% hot dog? What if I used chili? Or cheese?” But this guy’s always been like that. He finds one single way of looking at anything and sticks with it forever. To this day he hasn’t changed a bit since he was 17. To me, that’s kinda sad.

    You said,” Virtually 100% of the american people were behind Bush when he announced the war.”

    I didn’t. I predicted with obvious clarity everything that’s happened sinbce – including the decline in the war’s popularity. And I’m genius. I just know more about history, both domestic and international, and stay abreast of current important (as opposed to Paris Hilton) news, than most Americans. Americans are in serious need of education.

    I said, “Sometimes defencse is the best defense.”

    You said, “Again, well said.”

    Hey thanks!

    You said, “Also, a covert mission might sound good at the outset, but it would be expensive also. for the gear (night vision, silencers, sniper rifles). It would also take a while to come up with a plan, and it would cost some money to have secret meetings to keep the mission covert. And then, if the mission failed, if the government denied the mission, it would cost money to cover it up. In the end, it may not work.”

    All true, but the costs, in blood money and political capital, would surely be just a tiny fraction of what we’ve done to date.

    JMJ

  38. Jersey McJones said,

    Gunny,

    I said SOMETIMES a best defense is a good defense, not ALL the time. Jeez.

    Micky, 70% os all government debt ever accrued happened under the watch of three REPUBLICAN presidents and a REPUBLICAN congress for about half that time – Raegan, Bush I, and Bush II. And “liberals” at these times had little if any power in Washington. Heck, you don’t even know what a liberal is.

    Cody,

    You said, “I can’t say why Jews have done away with Levitical Law, however the Christians have done away with I, because it is no longer relevant. Jesus fulfilled the Law, and now the only law is to “Believe in God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength.”

    That’s not true. It may be true of your particular brand of faith, but not all Christians have done away with Leviticus.

    You said, “There is not a denomination that I know of that rejects the concept of the Trinity at all. The Trinity is one of the central concepts of Christianity.’

    There are plenty of nontrintarian churches. Look it up. Ever hear of the JW’s? The understanding of the Trinity is one of the rhetorical theological reasons for the Reformation. It’s a huge, complicated debate, but the way Catholics look at the Trinity and Protestents look at it is very different. For most nondemnom prots, the Trinity is almost meaningless, and another example of Papal heresy. Besides, Protestents may THINK they believe in the Trinity, but the Trinity makes no sense if Jesus is unbegotten. So, you can say that you believe in the Trinity if you are a Protestent, but you don’t.

    ALL MUSLIMS CONSIDER JEWS, CHRISTIANS, AND MUSLIMS AS “PEOPLE OF THE BOOK” BECAUSE THEY ALL WORSHIP THE GOD OF ABRAHAM.

    Why you never heard this expression is beyond me.

    JMJ

  39. Jersey McJones said,

    On the former post I meant to say “no genius.”

    JMJ

  40. microdrive said,

    “I was saying that cutting taxes in wartime and borrowing money to pay for that war is a disgusting display of greed and apathy.”

    Well then, there is no disagreement here.

    Okay, I hear ya’. What I meant is this: Whenever I argue with the pro-Bush-war people they seem to be saying that somehow this is an all or nothing game – that Bush’s way of approaching the “GWOT” is the only way, and that to suggest anything else is to suggest we simply throw up our hands and convert to Islam. It strikes me as extremely narrow minded. There’s more than one way to do most things. But this guy’s always been like that. He finds one single way of looking at anything and sticks with it forever. To this day he hasn’t changed a bit since he was 17. To me, that’s kinda sad.

    Ah, now I see. Yes, that is kinda sad. But I would contest that, while similar, these issues are quite different. You said that it strikes you as extremely narrow to see only these two solutions, yet this is exactly what the enemy has said; that either we convert, or destroy them, or the war will continue. But, yes it does seem narrow minded in most situations

    “Americans are in serious need of education.”

    Again, there is no disagreement

    “All true, but the costs, in blood money and political capital, would surely be just a tiny fraction of what we’ve done to date.”

    And yet again, there’s no disagreement here.

    See, Gunny? When we debated, we got less disagreement.

    ————————————————————————————————————————

    “Ever hear of the JW’s?”

    The Jehovah’s witness are NOT Christians. They deny a whole lot more that’s in the Bible than just the Trinity.

    “So, you can say that you believe in the Trinity if you are a Protestant, but you don’t.”

    I don’t? Wow, was I mistaken with myself. Actually, I most certainly do believe in the Trinity. I don’t know where you got the impression that Protestants don’t believe in the Trinity.

    I’ve given you 4 different references in the Quran that state that Christians and Jews are unbelievers. I don’t know why you keep ignoring these

  41. microdrive said,

    By the way, “microdrive” is my (Cody) wordpress nickname. Sorry for the random switch.

  42. micky2 said,

    J said;
    “Micky, 70% os all government debt ever accrued happened under the watch of three REPUBLICAN presidents and a REPUBLICAN congress for about half that time – Raegan, Bush I, and Bush II. And “liberals” at these times had little if any power in Washington. Heck, you don’t even know what a liberal is. ”

    Lets get one thing straight that you cannot and will not win an arguement or debate in unless you lie, because its fact.
    Reagan and the two Bushs fought wars that no liberal was willing to even approach.
    War cost money !
    Any fool ( Carter and Clinton) can sit on their ass and do nothing that costs nothing , and then brag about the revenues they accrued due to not spending a dime and taxing the crap out of everyone at the same time. It’s called being cheap and greedy.

    As far as being a liberal goes, I use to be one when you were in diapers. But I quit drinking long enough to realize that I wanted some dignity and that I couldnt support a party that wanted nothing short of a dressed up commie state disguised as a democracy. To put it in brief , I grew up.
    As far as being on one side of the aisle or the other I would be as bold and honest to say that I dont think you even know what its like to be an American.
    Your description and actions show me that you think being a liberal consisits of just running around and critsizing everything you can with hindsight cures.

    Once again I came back to the table and you hadnt changed a bit.

    You said;
    We liberals would rather pay our bills than put them on our children .

    Our brave men and women giving the ultimate sacrifice in Iraq are paying for our childrens future with there lives. That is the ULTIMATE bill to pay .It doesnt matter if you believe in the war or not that was an incredibly self centerd and arrogant thing to say.

    And I have to say something that wiil no doubt point out your warped sense of self worth.
    Every post already has your full name over it, but still you place you initials at the bottom of every post. I mean, are you that insecure ?
    Dont worry, we wont forget about you that quick that we need to be reminded 2 times who we are listening to.
    We see you !
    we hear you ! O.K. ?

    By the way ,your weiners dont fly airplanes into buildings.
    That was a comparison that truly showed a lack of imagination.
    There is only one way to fight a weiner that is shooting at you, KILL IT !
    No matter whats on it.

  43. microdrive said,

    “Lets get one thing straight that you cannot and will not win an arguement or debate in unless you lie, because its fact.”

    I must say, I don’t get this.

    “Every post already has your full name over it, but still you place you initials at the bottom of every post. I mean, are you that insecure ?
    Dont worry, we wont forget about you that quick that we need to be reminded 2 times who we are listening to.
    We see you !
    we hear you ! O.K. ?”

    Micky, this is a debate, not a slandering session. Calm down, man.

  44. Jersey McJones said,

    Okay, you guys are throwing too much at me.

    Cody, let me just hit a couple points – if Jesus and God are the same, and Jesus always was and is unbegotten, like God, then there is no Trinity. JW’s are Christian Scripturalists. Mormons are Christians+. It is the height of arrogance to assume that your particular sect of your particular faith is the one true faith in practice.

    Just as you say that JW’s are not Christians, Muslims believe that Chrisians and Jews are not properly worshiping the God of Abraham. They do not deny that Christians and Jews worship the God of Abraham, but that they are doing it wrong. It’s the same thing someone like you would say about JW’s and Mormons. It’s sectarian nonsense. A waste of Humanity There is no God. But as a matter of Muslim doctrine, all followers of the God of Abraham are People of the Book. That’s just a fact.

    Micky, Reagan, Bush I, and Bush II fough wars that had no business being fought.

    Roosevelt fought the greatest war of them all and managed not to trow the country into endless debt in the process. Roosevelt PAID for his war, unlike the Trio of Sleaze. Reagan, Bush I and Bush II are failures. Utter, total, complete failures. Our country is a worse place thanks to them them. Liberals pay their bills. Conservatives hand them to their kids. It’s a shame. It wasn’t always that way.

    JMJ

  45. microdrive said,

    “…all followers of the God of Abraham are People of the Book. That’s just a fact.”

    No, this is not a fact. The Quran states that unless you:

    1) Lead a righteous life
    2) Give Zakat (charity)
    3) Believe in the Quran
    4) Believe in the God of Abraham
    5) Believe in the Last Day (Apocalypse)

    Now, Christians and Jews, for the most part do all of these, except #3. Therefore, as the Quran states, Allah will put his retribution on us.

    “Our country is a worse place thanks to them.”

    Consider this: The liberals now have control of congress, and so it is up to them whether the war ends or not. They would only have to vote to stop funding it, and hence we would be forced to bring our troops home. They do not do this, only so they can continue to bash Bush. They call it “Bush’s War”, and yet, they are the ones who are keeping the war going. This is what the media fails to report

  46. microdrive said,

    “It is the height of arrogance to assume that your particular sect of your particular faith is the one true faith in practice.”

    If so, then it is as arrogant of you to claim that there is not a god. I never said that my way was the only way, though, even if I did, EVERY single other monotheist religion is as exclusive. It is not a question of arrogance, it is a question of evidence.

  47. micky2 said,

    Micro drive, Im sorry.
    Its unfortunate that you dont get it

    I am identifying the personality and mindset that is responsable for what I think are ludacris and ridiculous statements.
    I posted earlier how ridiculous I thought the bickering was that I regretfully have also been a part of.

    And not but a couple hours later the content and subject of the debate had returned to nothing short of the same.

    If you are going to debate someone it is better to realize sooner than later that he is dishonest.
    How can JMJ possibly know that I dont know what a liberal is, just because I dont envision his ideoligy the same way? It is disengenuos to say or assume you know what someone does not know when the subject is left to nothing but concept or perception, such as a political party.
    So as far as slanderous goes, the pendulum swings both ways in this case.

    And my point still remains tha same. Its a fact that Bush 1&2 and Reagan had wars to fight that cost money. Clinton and Carter had no expences that even came close.
    Which is why Clinton had a surplus. Carter actually had little or nothing but a totally ruined economy. I was one of the unfortunate millions that was subjected to gas rationing and lines and astronomical unemployment. The proof to my claims are in our not too long ago history which millions are still alive to testify to.
    So while JMJ is right in saying that Bush 1&2 and Reagan had deficits, he is lying by omission of the other relative facts. This is why debate with him is fruitless because he is disengenuous.

  48. microdrive said,

    “So as far as slanderous goes, the pendulum swings both ways in this case.”

    Even so, we must remain calm in debate, as to not give the other side fuel against us.

  49. micky2 said,

    I dont claim to know things that only the individual or God could know, that is my point.
    If something is my opinion I make it clear. I present all facts to prove my point. Not just the ones I need.
    It is slanderous to make statements of someone based on half truths. Or no truth at all.
    It is equivalent to lying.
    I dont make claims I cant prove.
    Also , I gave up the debate with JMJ on the war a long time ago, as you probably will soon youself.
    How can you debate a the war or a threat when one voice does not even believe or acknowledge that the threat exists ?
    There is a world of proof to prove the threat exists. There is no proof to prove it does not exist. This reality does not exist in the minds of the extreme left.
    Its like arguing with the Borg, resistance is futile.

  50. GunnyG said,

    “Roosevelt fought the greatest war of them all and managed not to trow the country into endless debt in the process.”

    Actually, the war left us in debt even though there were 10 war bond drives where Americans bought bonds as well as paying taxes. The cost of WW2 to us was:

    288,000,000,000 (http://members.aol.com/forcountry/ww2/wc1.htm)

    Then, the Marshall Plan cost us ANOTHER $11,820,700,000 of which very little was repaid. Most of the participating ERP governments were aware from the beginning that they would never have to return the counterpart fund money to the U.S.; it was eventually absorbed into their national budgets and “disappeared.” Under the London debts agreement of 1953, the repayable amount was reduced to about $1 billion. Britain received a total of 3.27B.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan

    And you think the budget was BALANCED after that? I beg to differ.
    The 1946 deficit was about 539 BILLION dollars.

    Thanks to Al Gore for inventing the internet and making it easy to refue liberal bunk.

  51. ddennis said,

    Cody, if I’m not mistaken, it looks like you’re trying to exercise logic on a liberal. Good luck with that, buddy . . .

  52. Jersey McJones said,

    Micky, nice try. Put the word liberal in the context that you have and you prove that you don’t know what a liberal is.

    Cody, stop with the dry-text reading and come back down to Earth. Per Muslim culture all worshippers of the God of Abraham are People of the Book. Why this bothers you, I don’t know. It’s really pretty petty.

    Gunny, the point is that generation paid the bill. They didn’t hand it to you.

    Ddennis, you are displaying the depth of a puddle.

    JMJ

  53. micky2 said,

    Yea well JMJ you still have the problem with credibility.
    If your description of liberal is the same as your description of our enemy, it explains how you seem to once again think that you are the grand ole pooba of knowledge.
    Its almost .
    The word “liberal” really doesnt fit YOU unless you liberate your mind from the rest of your collective buddys. I dont think you know what a conservative is , but I could care less if you think I’m right or wrong. Mostly cause I wrote you off a long time ago.
    And quite frankly JMJ I really dont care what you call yourself.
    You are only on this post for the one upsmanship that you said you dont want.
    But thats all you do all day long . Its all you do man, ALL YOU DO !
    For you its only about trying to convince the whole world that you are the only one who knows what he is talking about.
    Once again man, Ive been watching you and its the same old crap, you cant stay on a decent level for long.
    Do yourself and a few others a favor and look back on all your debates and see how they end. ALL THE SAME WAY.
    Just like the post right above this one. THERES NO POINT ANYMORE !
    I’m not going to give your form of communication a name. This way I can stear clear of being called slanderous or mean.
    You take a look back and name it. If you get stuck I give you some hints

  54. Jersey McJones said,

    Micky, please stop personalizing things. I’m not nearly as offended by you as you are of me. Give it a rest, will ya’?

    JMJ

  55. microdrive said,

    “Cody, stop with the dry-text reading and come back down to Earth. Per Muslim culture all worshippers of the God of Abraham are People of the Book. Why this bothers you, I don’t know. It’s really pretty petty.”

    No. If a Muslim is not an adamant follower of the Quran as it is written, then they are not a devout and true Muslim.

    “Ddennis, you are displaying the depth of a puddle.”

    Yes.

    “Micky, please stop personalizing things”

    And yes.

  56. microdrive said,

    “I wrote you off a long time ago.”

    Then, why are you still talking to him? I have to side with Jersey on this one, man.

  57. micky2 said,

    Look gentlemen
    Its personal when some one keeps saying he knows more about me and my life than I do.
    Its personal when someone assumes on a superiority complex that I should be dumb enough to swallow his crap.
    Does anyone remember that JMJ has first hand knowledge of my sex life ?
    He has also referd to the country mourning 911 as “hysteria”
    All the above are every reason to personalize things

    I have no respect for this man, and I will treat him accordingly. No matter what anyone thinks.
    I have “given it a rest ” JMJ and tried to come back on a better note.

    In this blog I have only one person to answer to and that would be Eric.
    If Eric feels I am out of line I will respect his wishes and honor whatever he asks or suggests.
    Has anyone botherd to wonder why Jersey is the only one I treat this way ?

    J said;
    Micky, please stop personalizing things. I’m not nearly as offended by you as you are of me. Give it a rest, will ya’?

    Could that be because I am not as offensive as you are ?

    And also ,most debates have a personal element in them. We
    like to pretend that element is not there by disguising it with semantics and PC crap,
    and overly cordial metaphors.

    I would more than love to have good debate, And Ive had many of them on this blog.
    But I will not be taken for an idiot an remain respectful.

  58. microdrive said,

    “…most debates have a personal element in them.”

    While this may be, intelligent debates go on. Jersey and I know that we can have a debate without insulting each other every other post. I, unlike you respect Jersey because of this.

    Guys, this is a debate, not a character assault. If you want to tell someone everything that’s wrong with them, do it to yourself. Self-reflection often does one good. And while I may agree with everything you say, I will not condone this character assault that has started. I may think that Jersey is a hard-headed liberal that won’t listen to sense, and he may think I’m a hard-headed conservative who won’t listen to sense, but at least we can have healthy debate without this rudeness.

    Jersey, Jehovah’s Witness and Mormons are NOT Christians. They deny core concepts of Christianity. How is it arrogant of me to say that one who denies a core concept of Christianity a non-Christian? Mormons believe that Jesus was not the Son of the one true God, and it is not me who says this makes you a non-Christian, it is the Bible. (and just so we’re clear, when you call me arrogant, are you also calling me close-minded? Some use the terms interchangeably, so I was wondering if you were also)

    “I was saying that cutting taxes in wartime and borrowing money to pay for that war is a disgusting display of greed and apathy.”

    Ok, maybe there is a little disagreement. How do YOU propose we pay for war? Also, what was the last good war America fought.

  59. GunnyG said,

    Jersey,

    “Gunny, the point is that generation paid the bill. They didn’t hand it to you.”

    Really? Looks like they handed us a Cold War at the very least, which I fought from 1979 to 1991, not to mention things like hippies, War on Poverty…the cost of which is now 70 TRILLION and climbing and has long since been lost, SS and Welfare Fraud, etc, etc, etc.

    Jersey, here’s a tip. Try to use FACTS to refute my points not your opinions.

  60. Jersey McJones said,

    Gunny, you’re obfuating the point. The Cold War may have been a consequence of WWII, but that’s not the point we were discussing. WWII was paid with war bonds, foreign lending, taxation, and penalties. Heck, the British just finally paid us their share of the bill last year! I stand by these truths.

    Myself, and many other people, felt that the Cold War was nothing but fear mongering and a utility of profit for the MIC as Ike warned us before. How “hippies” (a tiny segment of mostly middle-class white kids) cost us much of anything is beyond me. Perhaps you could point to the Drug War (a fear mongering utility of profit for the Police State), but I wouldn’t blame “hippies.” I’d blame easily baited and frightened American fools. As for the “War on Poverrty,” compared to the prior two “Wars” (“Cold” and “Drug”), it’s nothing. Look it up. Food Stamps pays for itself. AFDC (I forgot what they call it now) is for single moms and their kids. SSI is for the disabled and their dependents. SS could have paid for itself but pols since the Carter Administration have looted it. Welfare fraud is a tiny cut in all this. I don’t see what you’re driving at. Have you ever once looked any of this up?

    Cody, again, you should not tell other people what they believe. Believe what you want. If you think that there’s a Trinity but Jesus and God are both unbegotten, then I just can’t get past that. If you think scripturalists like the JW’s are “not Christian,” then again I’m just at a loss for words. The essential problem with all religion is the core irrationality of the entire epistemology. We could debate it forever, but because there are no facts, only “beliefs,” we will never reach a conclusion.

    As for the war? It’s really too late now. There’s nothing about this war that was done right. Paying for it would have required a completely different structure to the entire endeavor. During WWII, Roosevelt imposed an income tax of 90% on every dollar made over 1 mil. If a president tried that today, he’d be assassinated before he finished the first draft of the proposal speech. This isn’t America’s war. This is Bush’s war. And our soldiers are stuck with the real bill. We Americans can’t seem to even be bothered to pay an extra cent for it.

    JMJ

  61. microdrive said,

    You never answered any of my questions. LOOK IN THE BIBLE. ANYONE WHO DENIES A CORE CONCEPT OF CHRISTIANITY IS NOT CHRISTIAN. And you certainly shouldnt be lecturing me on telling people what they believe, because, as I recall YOU TOLD ME THAT I DID NOT BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY. Even Mormons acknowledge that they are not Christians. I am not telling them what they believe, I am AFFIRMING what they believe, READ THE BIBLE. It says that anyone who denies ANY of it is not a Christian. And I’m still waiting for you to answer my questions. Now, to my final point. DO SOME RESEARCH. There is a PLETHORA of evidence that affirm a God exists, and they far outweigh evidence that a God does not exist.

  62. micky2 said,

    Once again micro, you missed it.

    I absolutly refuse to stay nuetral or unpersonal when some one asaults me and my intelligence by claiming to know more about my life than I do.

    I think if you took the time micro, to look back on earlier posts wouldnt be so judgemental.
    And frankly it doesnt matter to much to me what your idea of proper or improper debate is.
    I do quite well in other forums without anyone lecturing me on my conduct.

    I might even be so bold as to say that Eric has witnessed me apologize when I am wrong.
    But on the other hand , I dont take crap.
    To debate an issue is one thing But when words are put in my mouth, or I am told things about myself that only God or I could know. I react accordingly to the level of lunacy being presented to me.
    If I can read, in the post right above me it says what I said about the man, he knows it all !
    He told you that you did not believe in the trinity, he’s amazing , isnt he ?
    You can go right ahead and tolerate that if you want. I wouldnt.

  63. Jersey McJones said,

    I love the moniker “microdrive,” buy “Cody” is so economical! What would you like to be called?

    “You never answered any of my questions.”

    I’m sorry. I thought I did.

    “YOU TOLD ME THAT I DID NOT BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY.”

    As by now you can probably tell, I come from a Catholic background, atheist that I am. I do not understand the Protestent Trinity. Either Jesus is begotten or Unbegotten. If it’s the former, then you have a Trinity. If it’s the latter, then you have a Duity (sp?). 😉

    “Even Mormons acknowledge that they are not Christians.”

    That’s not true. I know Mormons. I’ve never heard that before. Please show me if and where I am wrong.

    Micky, you’re right! I did impose my personal opinion on Microdrive. I was wrong for that. As an atheist, Micky and Cody, I should put aside my Catholic point of Christian view, lest I be a hypocrite. My sincere apologies. In the future, I will try to put my theo-intellectual biases aside. This is America, after all. We Americans should appreciate and abide our fellow American’s theological perspectives. I was wrong. I’m sorry. And thanks for pointing that out. I was about to lambast Eric for something he wrote, but now I think I understand it a little better. Had he been Catholic, I’d have went on with it., but he’s not, and I need to appreciate that. Thanks guys!

    JMJ

  64. microdrive said,

    “What would you like to be called?”

    I dont really care what i’m called.

    “I’ve never heard that before. Please show me if and where I am wrong.”

    This may be just because we know different people. I also know a few former Mormons, all of which said tht Mormonism is nowhere near the same as Christianity.

    “I do not understand the Protestent Trinity.”

    Ok, I’ll sum it up for you. The two views are virtually EXACTLY the same. Father, Son, Holy Ghost/ Holy Spirit. Three-in-one.

    (by the way, the ALL CAPS was not meant to show yelling, it was meant to emphasize certain of my points. sorry if I came accross as yelling)

  65. microdrive said,

    Micky, agree with you as I may, if he insults you, and you do the same to him, it does nothing to resolve the issue. just as you say debate may not solve it, at least we will understand each other, but if we just flare insults at each other, it does nothing.

    “I dont take crap.”

    neither do i. but unlike you, i ignore it. i dont just come back with the same attitude, doing the same thing as the one who insulted me. however, i do understand your point of someone putting words in your mouth. it is good that you correct this, but this is as far as you should go. you shouldnt call the other person names.

  66. micky2 said,

    I am allowed to give my description of what I ” think” someone is.
    That title would be a name.
    I personally think we should start calling what we thinkis a spade a spade.
    Titles have just started to get way out of hand, And its all connected to this PC crap that is infecting our country. It s a disease that is only meant to candy coat things so that we go on pretending that the obvious is not obvious..

    My philosophy is different from yours, you fight your way, I fight my way.
    If someone nails me with a left. I return the favor until that person realizes he started something that was wrong.
    And then we get back on track.
    I’m really starting to take offense to you proposing or suggesting to me what my means of conduct should be.
    Its all in the phrasing gentlemen. I went through this on a leftist site. I explained to the leftys that if something is an opinion they should make that clear, instead of making it appear as fact. If you state it as fact , prove it.
    This clears up a lot of confusion and keeps the debate on topic

    This guy at this site wa accusing Bush of everything, even of putting those stickers on our produce.
    He was going on and on. Bush is a murderer, he blew up the levees, hes responsable for Katrina.
    Finally instead of arguing with theory and belief I asked him to PROVE IT !
    And that was the end of that.
    When someone appears to have facts with no proof, I discount them.

  67. Jersey McJones said,

    So micro, to you, are Jesus and God exactly one in the same or not?

    JMJ

  68. microdrive said,

    yes, one and the same.

  69. microdrive said,

    “Islamists aren’t stupid enough to believe that they can convert or destroy the United States and the West.”

    Really? Then how come the new ‘Muslim Brotherhood’ memo stated that the mission of Islam is to destroy western thinking, and western way of life? And not only that, but to destroy the west completely?

  70. Jersey McJones said,

    Cody,

    To post #68: Then what’s the Trinity? It makes no sense. It’s pointless. I’m sorry, but I don’t think I will ever understand why you even bother saying that you believe in the Trinity. The Trinity is simple: God, the Unbegotten, Jesus, begotten of God, the Holy Spirit, through which we receive slavation. If Jesus is unbegotten, then there is no Trinity. I just don’t see why you’d bother with it.

    To post #69: So what? Who cares what a memo says? There’s a huge difference between rhetoric and reality, Cody. Through history, there have been countless megalomaniacal memos, countless “The Brain” types who wake up every morning and set about a plan to “try and take over the world.” But they don’t. They can’t. It’s not realistic. And to worry ourselves so much over these nuts is to play right into their hands and make ourselves their paranoid patsies. trillions of dollars to chase a few thousand bad guys??? Really??? Do we really need this???

    JMJ

  71. micky2 said,

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3827/is_20070604/ai_n19321005

    Jihad Watch

    Some of the results of the recent Pew Research Center poll of Muslims in America were startling: 26% of Muslims between the ages of 18 and 29 affirmed mat there could be justification in some (unspecified) circumstances for suicide bombing, and 5% of all the Muslims surveyed said that they had a favorable view of al Qaeda. Given the Pew Center’s estimate of 2.35 million Muslims in America and the total of 13% that avowed a belief that suicide bombings could ever be justified, that’s more than 300,000 supporters of suicide attacks-and 117,500 supporters of al Qaeda.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18797530/

    The survey by the Pew Research Center, one of the most exhaustive ever of the country’s Muslims, revealed a community that in many ways blends comfortably into society. Its largely mainstream members express nearly as much happiness with their lives and communities as the general public does, show a broad willingness to adopt American customs, and have income and education levels similar to others in the U.S.

    Even so, the survey revealed noteworthy pockets of discontent.
    While nearly 80 percent of U.S. Muslims say suicide bombings of civilians to defend Islam can not be justified, 13 percent say they can be, at least rarely.

    That sentiment is strongest among those younger than 30. Two percent of them say it can often be justified, 13 percent say sometimes and 11 percent say rarely.

    “It is a hair-raising number,” said Radwan Masmoudi, president of the Washington-based Center for the Study of Islam and Democracy, which promotes the compatibility of Islam with democracy.

    Its not just a few thousand.
    We have 1.2 billion muslims in this planet.
    Play the percentages above into this number and you come up with approx. 10 million muslims that think its O.K.
    Lets be generous and say that only 1% will actually carry out a suicide bombing,
    That would be 100 thousand potential threats , along with the polls results that show 117,500 AlQueda supporters, this makes the numbers jive well enough where it would be considerd true by all logic.

    We have to remember, it only took a handfull to pull off 911.
    Paranoid is a term more fitting of fears based on suspicion, and will limit your actions.
    Americans pretty much do today whatever they want.
    America is just being attentive and cautious. If we were paranoid we wouldnt be jumping on planes and going to 911 memorials.

  72. Jersey McJones said,

    It’s all well and fine to be careful and cautious and proactive. It’s another thing entirely to go all screwy and spend trillions of dollars and start inane wars. It would be like if you lived in a bad neighborhood, so you spent literally 1/6 of your annual income on weapons every year. It’s just plain silly overkill.

    JMJ

  73. micky2 said,

    Not in my neighborhood.
    We have proof he came after us and wants to do it again.
    He even came after some other neighbohoods.
    We went to his neighborhood and killed a bunch of his buddies there.
    Then some ganglord in another neighborhood attacked his neighbors so we kicked him out of that neighborhood and told him to behave.
    He said he would behave but he then lied and even took a few shots us.
    So we kicked his ass and then all the guys that came after our neighborhood went to his neighborhood and started scrapping with us there.
    They’ve been so busy there, plus we have our guys here, it hasnt allowed them to attack us in our neighborhood again..

    Bill didnt spend enough, and we get attacked( Gee look at my surplus)
    We get attacked at home, and some say what we spend is too much.
    Maybe one day someone will get it just right.
    Till then I’ll count my blessings, and be grateful.

    Sorry if I’m being animated or cocky but I am really tired of the subject, we are where we are at and it only makes sense to steer the horse we are on instead of beating it or jumping off.
    There is nothing silly about our enemies.
    Any firm or business that has something to protect would gladly wish it only had to spend 16.5% of its gross on security, especially when the stakes are human lives.

    Whishing you a fulfilling Yom Kippur Eric

  74. microdrive said,

    It’s another thing entirely to go all screwy and spend trillions of dollars and start inane wars.

    WE DID NOT START THE WAR. realize this. we were attacked (9/11, remember?) we retalliated. how did we start a war?

    “It would be like if you lived in a bad neighborhood, so you spent literally 1/6 of your annual income on weapons every year.”

    this is an EXTREMELY illogical comparison. by this logic, you are saying that america deserved to be attacked, that it is/was not a good place to live in, and that we dont realize that. if america were a “bad neighborhood”, then it wouldnt be the GREATEST COUNTRY ON THE PLANET.

  75. Jersey McJones said,

    Yes, we did start the war. We were attacked by criminals, not a state. We started the war in Iraq. We started the war in Afghanistan. One was necessary, the other was not (in reverse order, of course). And to say that I think we “deserved to be attacked” is really beneath you, Cody. To this point our debates have been most civil. Let’s keep it that way. The “neighborhood” anaolgy was America in the rest of the world, comapred to a home in a neighborhood. You are certainly bright enough to have gotten that. And as for “greatest,” that;s just silly and subjective.

    JMJ

  76. micky2 said,

    Thats incredibly disengenuous and naive JMJ.
    I dont care if its martians that attacked us. We are at war with them\.
    State or criminals ? Give me a break.
    Necessity is a matter of opinion that coincides with priorities.
    The neighborhood analogy belongs to me.

    The bottom line is this.
    There is a ton of proof to prove that Radical Islamist and the whole group of monsters are a threat.
    There is no proof to prove that they are not. As so many moonbats would like us to think.
    About 20 other countries across the globe feel the same way.

    Its very offensive to us that have perfectly good brains and logic to be told that we are overplaying the threat by someone with an opinion only, and no proof what-so-ever that can justify downplaying the threat.
    The proof is in 911. Almost all of congress believed and still does to this day that Saddam was a threat. He shot at our planes and sent suicide bombers to Afghanistan. The only people who have reversed their feelings about this are agenda driven by the elections.
    You have not answerd to any of these FACTS yet in the 2 or 3 weeks we have been debating this isue with any of your own facts.
    Its a dead horse. And whether you or anyone else likes it or not we are going to be in Iraq and Afghanistan for a long time.
    All the resistance and lies being pushed around do nothing but impede and prolong the process to the point where it only makes things more dangerous.
    The looney left is becoming a liabilty and nothing else.

  77. Jersey McJones said,

    Micky,

    “I dont care if its martians that attacked us.”

    I know. I can tell. It’s like when a man gets drunk and goes about looking for a fight. I’ve been there. I know what that mindset is.

    “Almost all of congress believed and still does to this day that Saddam was a threat. He shot at our planes and sent suicide bombers to Afghanistan.”

    “Believed,” huh? Sent “bombers,” huh? Yeah, right.

    When you get really old, and your grandkids ask you where you stood on all this, I wonder what you will tell them.

    JMJ

  78. micky2 said,

    Jersey

    Why cant you counteract me with facts ?
    Instead of being vague.

    You said;
    “Believed,” huh? Sent “bombers,” huh? Yeah, right.

    Remember congress voting to go to war ?( they voted their belief)
    I said suicide bombers(2500.00 for the Palestinian families)

    You said;
    “Yes, we did start the war. We were attacked by criminals,”

    So its only a war if the guys who start it are not criminals ?

    And if you are refering to my mindset being that of someone who is drunk and looking for a fight, I suggest you go get some rest.

    Your answers hold no validity, they are vague and non descriptive and do not prove anything but the appearance that you want to argue or are drunk yourself.
    I still hold my sobriety till this day.

    Proof again ,that whenevr an olive branch is extended , you blow it.

  79. microdrive said,

    “We were attacked by criminals, not a state.”

    We are not at war with a state, we are at war with criminals.

    “And to say that I think we “deserved to be attacked” is really beneath you, Cody.”

    I never said that you thought that; I merely stated that by that logic, it appears that you are conveying that. I’m terribly sorry if I offended you, that is just how it came across to me. I would like as well to keep debates as civil as possible.

    “ And as for ‘greatest,’ that’s just silly and subjective.”

    Yes, maybe it is. However, question any “objective” person, (no one is truly objective) and they will say that America is the greatest superpower in the world. This is also confirmed by facts: America’s population is the quickest growing population, and has been for a while, this is because of our evil, racist, and

  80. Jersey McJones said,

    Congress DID NOT vote to go to war, Micky. They simply gave AUMF to Bush. There’s a difference – a HUGE Constitutional difference, and a huge difference in intent.

    The criminals that attacked us wanted exactly the response they got, thanks to people like you. Going to war with criminals is like hunting mosquitos with a bazooka – funny when Monty Python does it / tragically stupid when nations engage in it. And to add to the stupidity and tragegy is that the terrorists were looking for a war and they got it. Now we’re stuck over there creating more and more terrorists and more and more terrorist sympathy with every stupid tragic day.

    Cody, were it not for our massive immigration (including the illegal variety) our population would be going the same way as Europe’s. Look it up. And being a Superpower should not be a measure of our greatness. That would be like saying “That’s a great man!,” because the man happens to be large and muscular and well-armed. If you were to use measurements like liberty, health, quality of life, time spend with family, democratic participation, and social ills like STD’s, teenage pregnancies, divorce rates, joblessness, disparity of wealth, crime, etc – I could think of quite a few “greater” countries. I love America because it’s my home and I love our diversity. But there are plenty of things I don’t like. To truly love something or someone, one must be honest enough with that person or thing to critique when need be. To blindly love unconditionally is fine for infants, but is otherwise just infantile.

    JMJ

  81. micky2 said,

    Once again you show no links, stats or documentation to make your point .
    Its all based on your superior knowledge.
    MONTY PYTHON?
    You asked Coty to “look it up ” Thats your job man! not his !
    You make a claim or accusation, prove it ! Untill then passing gas is the equvalent.

    Your analogy on the muscle man left out the compassionate and wealthy and free.

    You said
    “To truly love something or someone, one must be honest enough with that person or thing to critique when need be. ”

    I say;
    Remember one thing when you say this.
    Honesty without sensitivity, is brutality

    By the way, I practice unconditional my man, even for you.

    But it doesnt mean I have to like you

  82. micky2 said,

    Sure looks like a vote to me
    http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=107&session=2&vote=00237

    U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes 107th Congress – 2nd Session

    as compiled through Senate LIS by the Senate Bill Clerk under the direction of the Secretary of the Senate

    Vote Summary

    Question: On the Joint Resolution (H.J.Res. 114 )
    Vote Number: 237 Vote Date: October 11, 2002, 12:50 AM
    Required For Majority: 1/2 Vote Result: Joint Resolution Passed
    Measure Number: H.J.Res. 114
    Measure Title: A joint resolution to authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq.
    Vote Counts: YEAs 77
    NAYs 23

  83. micky2 said,

    Authorized use of miltary force is always subjected to what the force is to be used for !
    ( did you see the part wher it says ” Against Iraq ” ?) They also clearly use the word “VOTE”.
    Bush cant say; Hey you know what ? I want to use the military for something, and I’m not going to tell you what it is.
    Stop playing games Jersey !

    We all knew what they were voting for, they knew they were voting to go to war.
    Please dont insult our intelligence anymore by arguing against common knowledge with personal interpretations

  84. micky2 said,

    J said;
    “I could think of quite a few “greater” countries. I love America because it’s my home and I love our diversity.

    This has to be one of the most ridiculous and self conflicting statements I have ever heard.
    Shouldnt the home that you love be the greatest ? I mean what the ?
    I cant think of any place greater to live.
    I guess having a moonbat in office would make it the greatest ?

  85. microdrive said,

    while micky gave the emotional response (this is NOT an attack, or insult), i will give the rest of the story, yet i refuse to take part in this debate in eric’s comment space anymore. if you would like to debate me anonymously, i dont know why you would, maybe thats just your thing, but i digress if you must debate me, do so by email; you can get my address from my blog. yes, you must endure going to my evil website, and potentially reading my horrendous propaganda. anyway, i will not debate here anymore.

  86. micky2 said,

    Whats emotional about documents proving it was a vote to go to war, the home you love being the greatsest?
    JMJ brought up the love thing .

    I dont take what you said as an insult or attack, I just find it strange since my arguement is that we operate on facts and not opinions, ifs your opinion just say so.

  87. microdrive said,

    no, not that post, i was talking about #84.

  88. micky2 said,

    #84 was a statement of logic.

    The keyword is “greater”
    And I questioned its application.

    If these other countries are greater then beat it ! , right ?

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