Obama vs Hillary…Mano a (Wo)Mano
http://www.tygrrrrexpress.com/2008/02/obama-vs-hillarymano-a-womano/
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February 1, 2008 at 10:26 am (POLITICS)
http://www.tygrrrrexpress.com/2008/02/obama-vs-hillarymano-a-womano/
THE TYGRRRR EXPRESS
Jersey McJones said,
February 1, 2008 at 11:03 am
“When Hillary was asked about her secret task force, she ducked the question, mentioned the -Chip program, and blamed President Bush for vetoing something. ”
Something??? He vetoed the S-Chip bill!
JMJ
bob and merrill said,
February 1, 2008 at 11:41 am
Hillary has promised to take us all with her to the White House in spirit. What more can we possibly ask?
micky2 said,
February 1, 2008 at 12:09 pm
Didnt she do that once already during the White house christmas tour ?
Simon Moon said,
February 1, 2008 at 12:20 pm
Either of these two candidates will tear through John McCain like an M1 Abrams through a wall of tissue paper. They’ve both shattered all previous fund-raising records, which is especially impressive for Democrats, since Republicans usually raise more money. They’ve both shown the ability to bring in huge numbers of unlikely voters (though Obama more so).
Kindly old John McCain doesn’t have a chance against either of them.
AL said,
February 1, 2008 at 1:37 pm
My stomach hurt during most of the debate. All they have to say is, “we need for Blacks, whites, browns, and Asians – can’t forget the Asians – and rich and poor and bountiful and needy and liberal and conservative to get together and we’ll be a great nation – especially once Bush is gone” and stupid people howl and clap with vigor. Sheep that need to be sheared.
Great report on another dreadful night. Hillary did everything she could BUT say that the Iraq invasion was justified… she even said something to the effect of, “We knew he had been developing WMD in 1998 and stopped him then, so it was credible he was doing it again…”. Obama says nice things but is naive – we’ll find a way to pay for it – just don’t expect me to articulate a plan. At least Hillary knows that somebody has to pay – so when the $200K plus crowd start paying higher taxes, where do they start cutting?
Both their comments did a disservice to Soldiers. I know I’ve said this a different way, Eric, but no matter how often you say you support the troops, if you say the mission the Soldiers are conducting isn’t something we should be doing, you are making mercenaries out of the Volunteer Army, and you are questioning why they are fighting for the American people. You are also giving aid to a patient enemy. To hell with both of them..
Jersey McJones said,
February 1, 2008 at 2:01 pm
Now Al, take it easy. It was by far the most thoughtful debate thus far on either side, and that was probaly because it wasn’t so muddied up with lesser tier candidates. Taxes can’t always just go down. That’s just inane. You don’t have to agree with a war to want well for the soldiers fighting it. Again, just inane. Take off your ideology hat for one minute, take a breath, and be realistic. Be it a president Hillary or Obama, Romney or McCain, things aren’t going to change all that much. The great mosquito hunt of the GWOT will go on. The wealthy will stay wealthy and most of the poor will stay poor for it. Free trade will continue on it’s merry way. Life as you know it wil pretty much stay the same. Try to put things into perspective.
JMJ
AL said,
February 1, 2008 at 2:41 pm
Jersey, You are speaking a sad truth. Granted, I’m old enough and ALMOST wise enough to get through the garbage that Obama never agreed and Clinton didn’t really vote to go to war, but to have both of them denouncing the Commander in Chief to the world while we have Soldiers in harms’ way is not inane – it’s treasonous. Joe Tentpeg hasn’t the experience I have – and not every Soldier has the same convictions I have. Both politicians are planting dangerous seeds. If Joe Schmo says it, so what, but they are both Senators – representatives of the US Government – one body of legistators who approved taking out Saddam and who have continued to fund the aftermath – no matter how ugly it is. The “United” in States used to mean something, and it’s a sad day when representatives of the citizens – elected officials – blast our Commander in Chief during wartime. I say again, To hell with both of them.
Jersey McJones said,
February 1, 2008 at 3:01 pm
Oh c’mon Al, it’s not treasonous to denounce a commander in chief in a time of war. That’s just nonsense. It’s like the 4th Commandment – it says honor they father and thy mother, not agree with them all the time. If the president does something wrong then nothing is more patriotic then to call him or her on it. Heck, this is why we have America in the first place! Some people, like me, think this is an evil colonial oil war, ill planned and executed, profiteered and corrupt, and I believe intentionally so. None of this is a the fault of any soldier – not a one. It is the fault of the commander in chief. The buck stops there. In my opinion, anyone who says we should just be quiet and support him regardless of what he does just because he is the commander in chief in a time of war is acting like a sheep – or better put, a leeming on his way off a cliff. Our founders roll in their graves every time someone says that we should stifle dissent, ever.
JMJ
malcolm said,
February 1, 2008 at 3:42 pm
I’ll give him credit for using a historical democratic talking point against hillary last night:
AL said,
February 1, 2008 at 4:00 pm
Jersey, I think you missed my point. You have every right, and an obligation, to speak out as a tax paying, voting citizen. However, Clinton is a Senator who publicly stated, on more than one occasion, that Saddam is a threat and must be stopped. She is a representative of the US government, no longer an average citizen. She voted on the resolution to take Saddam out of power. She voted to continue funding the war – more than once. Do you know why she did that? Because she knows that Saddam was a threat in 1991, a threat in 1998, and a threat in 2003. She said so herself! All she’s doing now is pandering to an ignorant public who has been terrorized by a lying media. I don’t expect to convert you, but for those who are “on the fence”, they need to know that Hillary is quite brilliant, and she is calculating. She wouldn’t have voted to go to war if she didn’t think it were necessary. For the same political reasons, she can’t support it now because the “Saddam” threat is gone, and she, like her polling husband, will say just about anything the public wants her to say…and she voted to continue funding the war for one or two reasons: first, she knows we must maintain a balance of power there or the Middle East will come crashing in – and she doesn’t want to be responsible for that inevitable truth. Second, she knows that as much as Hollywood and the media hate this war, and as much as even average citizens hate it, most citizens do not support a cut and run tactic. You listened to the debates – neither Obama nor Clinton support getting out any time soon. Again, the Commander in Chief didn’t make a mistake; if he had, she wouldn’t have supported it in the first place. Obama didn’t support it because he wasn’t “behind the vault” or in the know at the time – he was a state legislator living the high life. I don’t question your information about recycling because I didn’t live it for 10 years. It’s rather odd you would question my information since I’ve lived it for 28 years.
micky2 said,
February 1, 2008 at 4:54 pm
JMJ;
“You don’t have to agree with a war to want well for the soldiers fighting it. Again, just inane.”
Not inane at all. Even Greg whos son is over there right now agreed with me when I asked him;
” How can you tell your son you support him when you dont support what he’s doing ?”
Real support is when two people or more have the same goal in common.
You do what you can to help the one you claim to support.
Wanting well for them is different than wishing them success in completing their mission.
You’re just saying you hope they dont get killed , thats all.
Stop insulting peoples intelligence.
I support everyone in a foot race, but I cheer for the ones I want to win. Theres a huge difference.
Jersey McJones said,
February 1, 2008 at 5:30 pm
Al,
“She voted to continue funding the war – more than once. Do you know why she did that? Because she knows that Saddam was a threat in 1991, a threat in 1998, and a threat in 2003.”
No, she voted for the AUMF and subsequent funding because she’s a political coward just like the rest of the weak-kneed Dem idiots who backed the war in the first place. They knew better but they gave Bush and the GOP enough rope to hang themselves and all the rest of us. Too much rope. She certainly knows it now, and her argument is only flawed in that she’s trying to appease the wrong audience. She’s never going to get about 40-45% of the vote, let alone the small minority that still thinks the war was a good idea. Why she even bothers playing to them is beyond me.
“…most citizens do not support a cut and run tactic.”
No one does, Al. It would be dangerous for our troops and possibly catastrophic for Iraqis if we just up and left. Everyone gets that.
“Again, the Commander in Chief didn’t make a mistake; if he had, she wouldn’t have supported it in the first place.”
I call sophistry!!! There’s no way in monkeyland I’m buyin’ that logic! If he had then she wouldn’t have? C’mon! LOL!
“I don’t question your information about recycling because I didn’t live it for 10 years. It’s rather odd you would question my information since I’ve lived it for 28 years.”
I know politics. I’ve followed it my whole life. No matter what I was doing, or where I was living, I always followed politics. I also have always intently followed modern history. So in that sense, and in a broader sense, in that world trade and politics and wars are all tied together, we’re pretty much on the same wavelength.
JMJ
micky2 said,
February 1, 2008 at 5:34 pm
JMJ;
“anyone who says we should just be quiet and support him regardless of what he does just because he is the commander in chief in a time of war is acting like a sheep ”
So, you support the troops, even though you dont like the mission.
But you dont support the president the same way on the same mission ?
Why dont you tell the solsiers that they are supporting an evil colonial oil war, ill planned and executed, profiteered and corrupt, and I believe intentionally so.
You say its not the fault of the soldiers, only the fault of the commander in chief.
But the soldiers volunteered to back him in the same quest, for more than one tour in many cases.
So when you bash the president, you are bashing all the volunteers who put there lives on the line for same belief as Bush.
Jersey McJones said,
February 1, 2008 at 5:47 pm
Micky,
Again, I call sophistry, but this time it’s starting to annoy me. I, and every other American, “support” the troops. We wish them well. We want them to be happy. We want them to accomplish certain tasks once in a while as the bargain of service, and so we try to be careful about taking them up on it. We have used 600,000 guards-men and women since 9/11 and most of them for Iraq. That is not what guards are supposed to be used for. Guards by definition are people who mind the home territory not the expeditionary. This is military history 101, for Patton’s sake! (Joke intended) We cut taxes in war. That is so ridiculously unprecedented for a reason. You don’t cut taxes in war. It’s stupid.
You see, Micky, it’s not only that the war was stupid, it’s the way it has been managed from the office of the Commander in Chief. And that’s not a coincidence. And so, in a valid argument, I can say that speaking against this misbegotten mission and this sorry excuse for an administration is one and the same, and the beneficiaries of the argument are all but the administration.
Soldiers are people. People do what they have to do. Sometimes its good and sometimes its bad. As long as what they do is ethical, then they should be happy and we should be happy with them. You can no more blame a soldier for a bad mission than you can blame him for his nose. He didn’t ask for it.
Of course, Ike warned us that one day the MIC may start asking for it, and we’d better watch out for that… er… oh, yeah, Iraq proved his point…
JMJ
Tim B. said,
February 1, 2008 at 6:28 pm
She said she had gravitas.
Grape soda was coming out of my nose.
micky2 said,
February 1, 2008 at 6:33 pm
Oh B.S !
Dont freaking give me that history 101 of yours like you’re so much smarter than everyone else. Because you’re not !
I am damn well aware of how, why and when we went to war.
I also know the stats of who in the military supports the mission they are fighting.
75% voted for Bush ! And 70% support the mission !
These guys volunteer in a time of war knowing damn well where they;re going.
The marines, army , navy, air force . All of them new what was at stake !
How about common sense 101 Jersey ! Bushs mission is the troops mission , whether you like it or not.
True, mistakes were made. But that happens in any war. But nobody sat back and said “oh, Bush made a couple mistakes, so were not going to enlist.
You can dance and BS your way around this all you want.
JMJ;
“Taxes ” Trying to change subjects ? Who said anything about taxes ?
JMJ;
“Stupid war ” Thats just an opinion. Toss that one
JMJ;
“Misbegotten mission ” Thats just an opinion. Toss that one.
JMJ;
“Sorry excuse for an administration ”
A hell of a lot better than that sucky congress with a 2% approval. Toss that one.
JMJ;
“Soldiers are people. People do what they have to do. ” Except when they volunteer Jersey ! Toss that one.
JMJ;
“You can no more blame a soldier for a bad mission than you can blame him for his nose. He didn’t ask for it.”
Once again, english 101. They volunteered
I’ll bet you wont accuse them of fighting and volunteering for a mission you dont believe in.
AL said,
February 1, 2008 at 8:09 pm
Jersey, Believe it or not, I know where you are coming from in some of your arguments – and based on the administration’s terrible job of information operations – coupled with an anti-Bush media, I can understand the negativity. When I mentioned 28 years, I wasn’t talking politics – I was talking military service – and the experience to gather information, process it, and determine whether there is a viable threat. We have belabored the point, but again, “…she (Clinton) voted for the AUMF and subsequent funding because she’s a political coward just like the rest of the weak-kneed Dem idiots who backed the war in the first place” is a product of the aforementioned biased media, poor information operations, and lack of knowledge. You would have to be a serious conspiracy theorist to believe the majority of our legislators went to war for big oil, especially considering we haven’t reaped any of those benefits! Granted, the MIC is doing ok, but this is an “after the fact” product of any war – it’s too much of a stretch to believe we went to war for the sole purpose of feeding the MIC. That would be the first part of the MICkey Mouse Club – the cartoon characters cited so often…
I won’t address the “support the Soldier” issue – Micky laid that out pretty well. However, you brought up “history 101”. “That is not what guards are supposed to be used for. Guards by definition are people who mind the home territory not the expeditionary. This is military history 101, for Patton’s sake!”. The mission of National Guardsmen and women is to protect US citizens from enemies, foreign and domestic. During WWII, the US Army regulars got their butts handed to them. The National Guard was called up and turned things around. Lots of dynamics there. Also, the USAR and ARNG are no longer part of the strategic reserve. They are now part of the Operational Reserve – which means they fall under the Army Force Generation Model (ARFORGEN) and are subject to call up about every five or six years. Given the dual coverage in Afghanistan and Iraq, additional security coverage on the homefront, coupled with a small Army, many Guard and Reservists have served more than the 1 in 5 or 6. We’ll see how this plays out later, but that’s another reason why the “anti War” noise hasn’t grabbed legs the way Vietnam did – it’s because we have significant ARNG representation from hometown America, and there are a great number of serving citizen Soldiers who come home, tell their neighbors we are doing what needs to be done, and volunteering to go back.
AL said,
February 1, 2008 at 8:25 pm
I think a veteran sneaked into the Dem debate….https://webmail.us.army.mil/attach/PRICELESS
Jersey McJones said,
February 2, 2008 at 5:25 am
Micky, I can say that those 600,000 guards did NOT sign up for THIS mission.
I know what you meant about the military, Al. But let’s at least agree that the military is a political functionary and history gives them an important role.
And you ca’t arguye my point about the Guard. We have never used them in such an irresponsible fashion. And if this war were truly just – and therefore popular – we wouldn’t have to use them anyway, And of course, you’re right abnout the “anti-war noise,” which is why we had the Rumsfeld Doctrine in the first place. War-on-the-cheap was designed to keep the war poltically palatable – at the expense of the Guard. For that alone, the Bush administration will be remembered as the sleaziest and most cowardly of all wartime administrations.
JMJ
Jersey McJones said,
February 2, 2008 at 5:26 am
Didn’t you guys just see the new Guard report???
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-guard1feb01,1,7849729.story
Once again, Bush administration failure at it’s worst…
JMJ
AL said,
February 2, 2008 at 8:02 am
Jersey, The link you provided is an excellent story and needs to be told. However, lest we blame the current war, “…Reserve units have been taxed by repeated deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan, but the commission said the inadequacies were not solely the result of the wars.” It must be brought to everyone’s attention that the ARNG has been begging for money for years, and they have been consistently underfunded in the equipment arena. Again, this is not news – this is “olds”.
The article tries to bring Hurricane Katrina in as support for a lacking ARNG, but the ARNG performed admirably and was not hindered by lack of equipment or manpower.
The article also focuses on nuclear, chemical, and biological capabilities for the ARNG, which begs the question, if we aren’t in danger of terrorists’ attacks, why should we spend a lot of time and money training and equipping ourselves to guard against them? The ARNG has at least one team with CBRNE (Chemical, Biological, Radioactive, Nuclear, and Explosive) capabilities in each state. These guys do this full time. Most of the arguments for or against additional funding stem from decades-long bickering between states and the federal government. The Active Army, FORSCOM in particular, doesn’t support a significant funding increase for ARNG units because if citizens thought they could get more bang for the buck (i.e. hire more part-time Soldiers in lieu of full-time Soldiers), they might recommend reducing the size of the Active Army. Conversely, if we rely too heavily on the ARNG to handle OCONUS duties, we could reduce the home state capabilities.
On the one hand, I am making an argument for you because the ARNG doesn’t have all the equipment listed on its MTOE, and their primary focus should be on the home front, but on the other hand, I’m explaining the dynamics between the AC and RC forces, and both the federal and state governments will use statistics, fear, and any other tactic they can to pursue their own agenda.
Let’s look at two of your statements: “And you can’t argue my point about the Guard. We have never used them in such an irresponsible fashion.” It is your opinion that they are being used in an irresponsible fasion. You might get conflicting views from a majority of the 45,000 ARNG Soldiers my Training Support Battalion trained for combat in the past two years at Camp Shelby, MS and Fort Bragg, NC. Second, “And if this war were truly just – and therefore popular – we wouldn’t have to use them anyway, ” We are not using the ARNG because the war isn’t just or popular, and especially because President Bush is sleazy and wanted to do it on the cheap. We are using the ARNG and tens of thousands of USAR Soldiers because President Bush’s predecessor slashed the Active Component to its current size, albeit our current president has gained authorization to increase it by 30,000 and is looking for an even larger full-time force.
micky2 said,
February 2, 2008 at 8:07 am
JMJ;
“Micky, I can say that those 600,000 guards did NOT sign up for THIS mission.”
So what ? That doesnt really change your hypocrisy.
Whether you believe they signed up for this or not is irrelevant.
The guys in the field and otherwise have voted 75% in favor of their commander in chief.
That is a much larger statement that anything you believe.
It looks like Al pretty much addressed the Gaurds rediness and performance issues
Jersey McJones said,
February 2, 2008 at 8:56 am
Well, Al, you’re right about some of the chronic problems with the Guard. I’ve been reading about it for years. Just the same, that would make their overuse for expeditionary purposes all the more irresponsible, no?
Bush can look for a larger force all he wants. People are not going to sign up if they think they’ll be used irresponsibly.
Micky, I really don’t care who they vote for. It changes, adds to, or effects no part of this debate.
JMJ
micky2 said,
February 2, 2008 at 9:28 am
JMJ;
“Micky, I really don’t care who they vote for. It changes, adds to, or effects no part of this debate.
B.S ! Jersey.
It has to do with everything. And you just cant B.S. your way out of it.
When the facts support your arguement , you use them. When they defeat your arguement you say it doesnt matter.
You have not answerd my question.
JMJ;
“Micky, I can say that those 600,000 guards did NOT sign up for THIS mission.”
You can say anything you want. Your beliefs and opinions are what truly does not matter in this debate.
What matters is what the soldiers have said via their vote. And the vote points to “FACTS”
The fact here is that these guys “DID” volunteer for this mission. Because when they signed up they were aware of the fact that they do not get to choose and pick their missions. And quite frankly the ones who have enlisted in the last 5 years would have to be brain dead to think that they werent going to Iraq or Afghanistan. Not to mention the thousands who have returned for 2 nd and 3rd tours.
The bottom line is not what you “think or care about”
The bottom line is what points to the truth. And the truth is that you are hypocritical when you say you support the troops but not the mission. The mission is their purpose. You must support the purpose of an action in order to honestly support it.
You are telling them that they are stupid for following orders from a man you hate when you bash his mission and his purpose.
These guys are out there because they want the same thing Bush wants. 75% of them said so. NOT YOU !
So do us all a favor and stop playing us for idiots. Because we are not. We are adult men who have been around and we know a line of self conflicting crap when we hear it.
Greg supports his son in the hope that he doesnt get killed or injured. But he plainly addmitted to the hypocrisy that he does not support his sons mission. And he said so regretfully.
At least he was man enough to do that
micky2 said,
February 2, 2008 at 10:01 am
You cant win.
What you’re doing is wrong.
You are not all that educated.
You are doing this only for a paycheck.
You are fighting for the wrong reasons.
You are taking orders from a stupid evil man.
You and your leader have separate missions.
You are not fighting for what you believe you are fighting for.
You are doing this because you cant see through the smoke screen as well as I can.
When you say what you are saying it is as if you are holding a bunch of retards by the hand because they know not what they are doing and you only support them out of sympathy.
They do not need your sympathy. They need you to say that you hope they will succeed in the goal they want to accomplish. They are intelligent enough to know what that is
What you think is or is not important is the farthest thing from they’re mind.
micky2 said,
February 2, 2008 at 10:53 am
JMJ;
“Something??? He vetoed the S-Chip bill! ‘
So what ? He should of wiped his rump with it also.
There was enough sinister and deceving add ons in that bill for a public restroom on Times square.
Jersey McJones said,
February 2, 2008 at 12:51 pm
As for S-Chip, I suggest you read Eric’s post, and then you’d get what I was saying there.
As for the military, it doesn’t matter how they vote (or why). And it doesn’t matter waht people say about them (they always have).
JMJ
micky2 said,
February 2, 2008 at 1:06 pm
Yea it matters. you’re just dodging.
It matters because they support their mission by a show of hands. And the majority come back saying they believe in what they are doing.
You DO NOT believe in what they are doing and yet you say you support them ?
That is just STUPID Plain and simple stupid as the day is long.
All your positions point to the fact that you only support our guys coming back in one piece.
You have to, you must support their mission or else you are not supporting them at all.
Because the reason they are there is one you do not agree with is why you are a hypocrite to say you support them.
Support them ? My behind !
If you and your lot had it your way you would drag them all home right now and every man and woman that has died so far will of died for nothing !
If you truly supported them you would be cheering them on and not always questioning the validity of the mission. You would proudly scream from the roof tops ” I believe in your cause and your mission.”
They believe in it and that is all that matters because it is their life on the line, not yours !
How many people do you think would really lay their life on the line and risk it for something they do not believe in ? Huh Jersey?
Or are you gonna try to tell us that they’re too stupid to know any better ?
greg said,
February 2, 2008 at 1:28 pm
A couple of things to point out here. First, how soldiers voted in 2004 doesn’t mean they feel that way now, and I do recall recent news articles that show significant decreases in support by soldiers and even more so by the families of soldiers, and I also know from several sources that soldiers are pressured into saying things publicly that they would never say privately.
As to admitting it was hypocritical to support the soldiers but not the mission, I don’t recall doing that at all. I suspect I just got tired of responding to another one of micky’s tirades and just didn’t respond, but if I did admit it, I retract it because I don’t think it is hypocritical at all to support the troops and be against the war.
The fact is that neither I nor my son nor any soldier below the rank of general has any real measure of control over what the president decides to do. I think going to war in Iraq was a bad idea but even more so, the way it was implemented has been tragic and the aftermath is only just beginning. But, volunteer soldiers or not, I do think we as a country have an obligation to support those we have put in harm’s way regardless of the reasons they have been put there.
We have all heard stories about families having to buy their sons and daughters armor protection because the military couldn’t supply it. I have personally witnessed soldiers forced to live in absolute squalor at a military base in the US while they were waiting weeks for health care after being wounded in action. We have seen the conditions at Walter Reed and are witnessing the inability of the military and the VA to handle the injured. I could go on but is a legacy we will live with for many years to come.
micky2 said,
February 2, 2008 at 2:21 pm
Well greg, I’m not one to lie at all. I remember distinctivly you saying that your feelings were unfortunate but true.
here it is my friend. I was not talking out of my ass.
Greg;
“As to admitting it was hypocritical to support the soldiers but not the mission, I don’t recall doing that at all.
I asked you on November 14 , 2007
“Hey son, I dont believe in what you’re doing, you shouldnt be doing that, but you’re doing a great job ? You are saying that he is risking his life for nothing ?”
Greg said,
November 14, 2007 at 2:32 am
“Yeah, unfortunately that’s pretty much the situation. Don’t get me wrong, it’s not totally for nothing but the gains are so outweighed by the losses in Iraq that it sometimes seem like it’s for nothing. And I am just talking about Iraq here. There, of course, is a place for the military and a strong national defense.”
You were saying he was risking his life for nothing. Its right there. I have a good memory. You may not of used the word hypocritical and I’m sorry if I implied that you did.
Greg said on Nov 14th , 2007
That doesn’t mean their mission is a worthy one. I support the troops but not the war.
This statement is just as hypocritical as Jeresy. As a matter of fact its exactly the same thing. Hypocrisy.
If you believe in what you are doing it will turn out better. If there are two of you with the same mission and one does not believe in it , you both stand a good chance of failing.
Real support for these men comes in all forms. Not just the ones you pick and choose.
And as far as the rest of your post goes it really doesnt cut through yours and Jerseys hypocrisy
micky2 said,
February 2, 2008 at 3:23 pm
Greg ;
“any soldier below the rank of general has any real measure of control over what the president decides to do.”
Any soldier enlisting in the last 5 years was not ordered or asked to do so by anyone.
Its a volunteer force if I remember correctly.
AL said,
February 2, 2008 at 4:30 pm
A Medal of Honor recipient, and subsequent 4 star General, tried to tell a President what to do…”let’s take out Korea while we’re here”… he was relieved. Greg is right about Soldiers’ not necessarily influencing Presidents! McArthur was a hero, but he overstepped his bounds!
Greg’s comment, “…significant decreases in support by soldiers and even more so by the families of soldiers, and I also know from several sources that soldiers are pressured into saying things publicly that they would never say privately.” is worthy of discussion. Of course family members want their fathers/mothers/sons/daughters/ et al home! I can’t speak for all Soldiers, and I certainly am not a mind-reader. I do know that many Captains and senior Lieutenants (that’s almost a misnomer…) are getting out of the service, but it’s not so much that they don’t support what we are doing over there, it’s the fact that in their 4 – 6 years of service, they have been deployed at least twice at 15 months a pop, and often more. This doesn’t make for conditions to raise a family! Besides, they’ve served their time. My point is, Greg is right about increasing numbers of Soldiers who are tired of both Iraq and Afghanistan, and it is likely that some don’t support the war, and just as likely that some support the war but are flat tired and want to be home. I’m sure that Joe Tentpeg has been muzzeled at times, but just as often, when things want or need to be said, you can count on him to be heard! Soldiers have always been issued body armor – the complaints were that the “new and improved” armor wasn’t ready for distribution. Same argument about armor for vehicles…improvements are continuously being made…really not a part of the discussion.
I just know that when we stopped in Maine on the way home from Iraq, and people stood up and cheered, I literally dropped some tears. And when people approach me in the airport and thank me for my service, I feel blessed. And here’s where I have failed miserably in articulating my argument against any elected official who publicly criticizes our Commander in Chief – the American public may not feel we are at war – but Soldiers KNOW they are, so when Senators and Congressmen/women attack the Commander in Chief publicly, they are playing into the hands of the enemy and discouraging the morale of junior enlisted Soldiers. They are like so many cowardly people who lack moral courage – if they truly have convictions, they need to face the President one on one, veto funding, or do something behind closed doors – without a cheering section – that they can be held accountable for doing – but don’t take it public because they don’t have the spine or convictions to deal with the consequences…. which begs the question, since they have had access to the same information I have, and quite probably more, are they not posturing publicly because they know that we went in for the right reasons, and even though we mucked it up for a couple years, we are recovering nicely and establishing a much-needed balance of power in the Middle East. It’s simply easier to mince words and act stupid – you saw Hillary squirming the other night –
MacZed said,
February 2, 2008 at 8:21 pm
Anyone read Jonah Goldberg’s new book “Liberal Fascism”? If you haven’t you should pick up National Review – the one with the smiley face with a Hitler mustache…its a nice primer. I especially like it because the pictures roll in logical (chronological fascist) procession from Mussolini to Hitler to Hillary Clinton.
Jersey McJones said,
February 3, 2008 at 9:06 am
Micky, there’s a difference between supporting someone in general, and supporting everything they do. This difference is especially demarked when the person you’re supporting is ordered to do something that is beyond their capacity to deny. Anyone who doesn’t get this needs a serious lesson in rational thought.
“Liberal Fascism”
Stupidest. Oxymoron. Ever.
JMJ
micky2 said,
February 3, 2008 at 10:04 am
Rational thought?
Ration this.
I dont like what you are doing. nor do I believe what you are doing is right.
What you are doing is only making things worse an has cost the lives of thousands of people uneccessarily.
You are following a moraly defunct leader who is stupid and evil and a complete and utter failure. You believe in the same cause as him.
But I support you.
I understand the CMA mentallity very well Jersey.
You have to believe in the reason for what these guys are doing to truly support them.
Anything else is just fake gratuitous patriotism so you dont get your butt reamed by real patriots.
In a nutshell, its all Bullspit
micky2 said,
February 3, 2008 at 10:17 am
JMJ;
“is ordered to do something that is beyond their capacity to deny.”
Oh, and for the hundreth millionth time you can keep saying this irrational line all you want. But the majority of these guys know what the deal is before they enlisted.
So when you try to make it sound as if they are somehow being dupped into something they dont want to do its disengenuous.
If they did not want to be a part of Iraq, afghanistan or the GWOT then they more than likely would not of volunteered.
The statistics show this to be true. The military will always be more pro-military and pro-war than the civilians. That’s why they are in this line of work.
Jersey McJones said,
February 3, 2008 at 11:13 am
Micky, it has nothing to do with being duped or when they volunteered. The point is that you can’t blame the soldiers for their mission any more than you can blame a kid for being in a bad school play. They are simply doing what they are told.
I’m getting p.o.’d now, so I done with this sleaziness.
JMJ
micky2 said,
February 3, 2008 at 12:16 pm
Look dude ! Let’s restudy this , and stop obfuscating and switching claims.
The kids do not have to be in the play. Its a volunteer force.
They knew what the play was about before they volunteered.
They volunteered knowing that their role would be to support the Cause of the Commander in chief.
They knew damn well what they were going to be told to do when they enlisted.
That is why they enlisted.
So stop it already. It wont work. I’m accusing you of being a hypocrite. And you are trying to defend a position that says the soldiers had no choice in their destiny. THAT IS STUPID !
I support the troops, but I don’t support the war. ?
Jeez, it would be nice if you believed in what they were doing.
That is REAL support !
And there you go again attacking another mans manly hood.
IMO. If you were a real man and stood 100% behind your convictions you would go to a military base and ramble off all the crap you expect me to swallow. You would tell those Marines and Guardsmen that you don’t think what they are doing is right or helping. This is true , because I have you on record saying it countless times. And you know I will dig it up and quote you.
And those guys being “real men ” would probably want to rearrange your face, but instead would tell you that you’re allowed to say that kind of crap because of their predecessors and them. And/or would just at you as if you were some idiot code pink loon and chalk it all up to mental instability, and grant you the benefit of the doubt that you were just frustrated due to lack of insight.
charly martel said,
February 3, 2008 at 1:09 pm
Keep up the good work Micky
micky2 said,
February 3, 2008 at 1:52 pm
As I know I can trust you to do the same my friend. 🙂
greg said,
February 3, 2008 at 2:09 pm
Well, Micky, hypocrisy may be your interpretation of what I said, and that’s fine. We just disagree. I don’t think what I said was hypocritical at all.
AL, you may be right about things changing in the Middle East. I think it’s way too early to tell and I also think there is a big difference in our mission in Iraq and that in Afghanistan. The problem for pro-war people is that the Bush Administration has created a situation where the president and his people have so little credibility that even if there truly was good news coming out of Iraq, it hard to take it seriously.
And the ironic point is (and I’m quite sure Micky will think I’m nuts) that if you believe the notion that the initial mission into Iraq was correct and then it got mucked up for several years and now we are finding our way and have to somehow finish what we started, that’s periously close to what Hilary has been saying all along. She voted to authorize the war, has criticized the conduct of the war and now is looking for ways to complete the job rather than just cut and run.
AL said,
February 3, 2008 at 2:59 pm
Greg, I don’t think you are intentionally playing with words – I believe your analysis is straight forward. Before I agree, though, I must qualify that IF “…the initial mission into Iraq was correct and then it got mucked up for several years and now we are finding our way and have to somehow finish what we started,” then I basically agree. However, this is not what I’m hearing from her or other anti-war proponents – what I’m hearing from them is that we shouldn’t have gone in the first place, and that President Bush and his “cohorts” are pro Big Oil, pro MIC, lying, thieving individuals. We screwed the pooch by doing or failing to do several things, and I could outline them here, but most of the obvious ones have been covered. It’s still tenuous at best in Iraq, and Afghanistan, as you mentioned, is an entirely different situation – they don’t have oil – they have opium…and the kids are hungry…
AL said,
February 3, 2008 at 3:04 pm
p.s. In the first Gulf War, President Bush I got hammered (and maybe rightfully so) because he sold a chevy with black walls (i.e. get Saddam out of Kuwait). The public wanted a cadillac with white walls (finish the job by removing Saddam). He delivered to the public what he sold them. I have said this a number of times: President Bush II hasn’t done a good job in salesmanship – his best effort yet was the State of the Union, but it was too late for most. His information operations campaign has been terrible, so I understand the distrust and disgruntled populace. That’s the frustrating part for me, personally, because I sincerely believe in what we are doing in both places, but we haven’t “packaged” it properly.
greg said,
February 3, 2008 at 3:27 pm
I have always thought — even back at the time — that Bush I lost in 1992 because he failed to articulate the reason why we didn’t continue on and take out Saddam, so I wholeheartedly agree with you there. As far as Clinton is concerned I think I was being a bit facetious there, but I would separate her from the Obama crowd and other anti-war people who thought we should never have been there at all. Instead of trying to weasel her way out of the “did she/didn’t she” argument, it may have been better for her to go as I stated above — I authorized the war, it has been totally mishandled and we need me to fix it. Like it or not, and people on both sides of the spectrum have sometimes liked it and sometimes not, but both Clintons have always been centrists.
Jersey McJones said,
February 3, 2008 at 3:46 pm
Charly, I take it you don’t care for argument or dissent. How big of you. Why not try to debate more than just once in a blue moon? Are you any good at it?
JMJ
micky2 said,
February 3, 2008 at 4:07 pm
Dont get all puffed up Jersey. You can hardly handle me. What makes you think you can handle Charly.
Jersey McJones said,
February 4, 2008 at 6:56 am
Hardly? LOL!
I think I know him already. There was a Charles Amrtel that used to post with those wimps over at Hannity.
JMJ
micky2 said,
February 4, 2008 at 8:26 am
Greg, its not what you ” think you said”.
It’s what you don’t say that makes your statement ” I support the troops, but not the war” insincere and only marginally supportive.
” I want you to succeed in yours and your commanders goal ” , ” What you are doing is a right and noble cause, and you are succeeding” ,” I respect and stand behind the reasons for your service “.
I don’t ever hear you and Jersey saying these things.
I support our troops on more of the key subjects in this war than you or jersey.
For that reason you could not offer support on as many key subjects as I do.
When someone is trying to produce something that they think is of great value. The last freaking thing they need to hear is that they are part of a “squandered effort”, or that it will never work.
Now I’m sure you and Jersey are not totally without emotional sensitivity, which means you would probably like to be able to say to the soldiers some of the supportive things I say.
But you cant bring yourself to it !
Cuz you wouldn’t mean it !
We are all in this together ! Part of the fight is the civilian support for the troops. Without that support they are that much weaker.
Jersey.
Yes “hardly”
Actually ” softly” would be more appropriate. If you think terrorists are just “unruly children” And ” 911 happened because of Bush”.
Then you are delusional enough to think you could handle anything.
Jersey McJones said,
February 4, 2008 at 12:39 pm
Micky, how dare you put words in my mouth? I never said either one of those things. There are only two reasons you could say that I did – 1) You can’t figure out what I was talking about or 2) you are lying. So, which is it?
And ya’ know, if you want to be a great debator, if you want people to take you seriously, then you shouldn’t stoop to that sort of sleazy disingenuousness. Otherwise, it looks like you really don’t have a valid point and just have to squirm around in the mud when you are proven completely wrong.
JMJ
micky2 said,
February 4, 2008 at 3:47 pm
Read the post with just a little clarity this time.
I was talking about all the things you and greg ” dont ” say.
Show me where I accused you of saying anything you havnt said, please !
And then theres this statement I made which is the only accusation against you, AND I STAND BEHIND IT;
” You would tell those Marines and Guardsmen that you don’t think what they are doing is right or helping. This is true , because I have you on record saying it countless times. And you know I will dig it up and quote you. ”
You have said these things so many times it would be a piece of cake to go back and digg up quotes of you discrediting Bush , the effort and reason for the war ,and the progress of the mission.
Do you mean to tell me that you are denying saying these things ?
I dont know what squirming or what mud you are talking about.
It seems more likely here that you are the one pulling things from your rump and making things up.
Jeez, go drink some coffee.
Garret said,
February 4, 2008 at 4:53 pm
Hillary did everything she could BUT say that the Iraq invasion was justified… she even said something to the effect of, “We knew he had been developing WMD in 1998 and stopped him then, so it was credible he was doing it again…”. Obama says nice things but is naive – we’ll find a way to pay for it – just don’t expect me to articulate a plan. At least Hillary knows that somebody has to pay – so when the $200K plus crowd start paying higher taxes, where do they start cutting?
Jersey McJones said,
February 4, 2008 at 5:21 pm
Show me my quotes, Micky. Go ahead. Show me that you are not either misquoting me or spinning.
Garret,
Given the administration’s budget proposal, they’re betting on more defense and less everything else, including all the “everything else” this administration created in the first place. This is a lame duck going out with a bang – a bang right up our collective bowels. I wish any of you could come up with a smiley face to stick on top of this debacle, because this may be the worst since 1929.
JMJ
micky2 said,
February 4, 2008 at 7:18 pm
It would help if you could show me where I misquoted you , since you are accusing me it would seem only appropriate if you do some work on your own.
JMJ;
“Show me my quotes, Micky. Go ahead. Show me that you are not either misquoting me or spinning.”
Jersey McJones said,January 21, 2008 at 7:02 am
“I think the war is a complete failure and disaster overall.”
I”LL BET THE TROOPS JUST LOVE HEARING THAT ONE.
January 23, 2008 at 2:39 PM
” We are way, way, way, way over-reacting to the threat of terrorism.
I’ve read, the administration intentionally and malicisiously lied about Iraqi WMD,”
YOU READ IT SOMEWHERE ! BATHROOM WALL ?
THIS PROBABLY MAKES THEM FEEL REAL GOOD ABOUT WHAT THEY’RE DOING
Jersey McJones said,
January 24, 2008 at 6:37 am
” a convenient post-9/11 excuse to rape the taxpayors and consumers for the profit of the administrations well-known-to-be close friends in the Military Sector and Big Oil.”
OUR SLODIERS ARE FIGHTING FOR OIL.
Jersey McJones said,
January 24, 2008 at 9:13 am ” Given the extent of contracting and the effect this has had on Big Oil, if firmly believe this war was initiated to raid the public coffers for the profit of MIC and Big Oil.”
THE WHOLE WAR IS A SMOKE SCREEN
“I am deeply and profoundly ashamed of what my nation has been up to these days.”
SO WHATS NEW> WE’RE NOT TOO PROUD OF YOU EITHER
” George Bush is a failure. his supporters just can’t find it in themselves to be man enough to admit it.’
THE SOLDIERS THAT SUPPORT BUSH ARE LESSER MEN DUE TO THEIR CONVICTIONS?
” I never said the war was for “cheap oil,” Micky. If anything, it was for more expensive oil. ”
YOU’RE STILL SAYING ITS FOR OIL! THINK THE SOLDIERS LIKE HEARING THAT ?
” I have not and I think I will never understand the popular rationale for this stupid war. ”
TELL A SOLDIER ALL OF THESE QUOTES AND I’LL BET HE EXPLAINS IT TO YOU
Jersey McJones said,
January 24, 2008 at 7:49 pm
” Sorry Micky, I don’t buy it. Iraq wasn’t worth it.”
THE SOLDIERS DIED FOR NOTHING !
Jersey McJones said,
January 18, 2008 at 4:53 pm
“We” don’t fight anybody. Instead we take advantage of reserves and guards, destroy them and their families,
THEY HAVE NO IDEA HOW HORRIBLE IT WAS IN THE MILITARY, AND THEY SCREWED UP THEIR FAMILIES BY JOINING THE SERVICE.
” If you support the Bush administration, then not only do you not “support the troops,” you use them, abuse them, and throw them away.”
SO MYSELF AND THE SOLDIERS THAT SUPPORT BUSH ARE ABUSING THEM AND THROWING THEM AWAY ?
” This war was a mistake and anyone who thinks otherwise is imply unable to admit they were wrong.
THE 75% THAT SUPPORT THE WAR ARE WRONG, because jersey said so.
that should do it. And that was just the last couple days too. I didnt even have to go that far.
micky2 said,
February 5, 2008 at 8:22 am
JMJ said;
“Micky, how dare you put words in my mouth? I never said either one of those things. There are only two reasons you could say that I did – 1) You can’t figure out what I was talking about or 2) you are lying. So, which is it? ”
Would these be the two things you never said ?
Jersey McJones said,
December 31, 2007 at 8:25 am
Personally, Micky, I am quite convinced that Al Qaeda attacked us on 9/11 BECAUSE Bush and the GOP became the one party ruling majority.
Jersey McJones said,
October 26, 2007 at 4:13 pm
“Eric, please listen. Terrorism works in two ways, when it works at all. It frightens the hell out of people and it makes them mad as all hell. Either one of those products contains a good dose of hell. You should neither be frightened of terorists nor enraged at them. You should calmly and with calculation figure out a way to keep them from angering and frightening you. Sometimes parents have to deal with unruly children. Good parents do not beat the tar out of their kids. They figure out a more subtle way to get them to behave. Don’t fear terrorism, just find a way to stop it without making more of it.”
That last statement will always stick in my mind as the temple to ignorance and naivity.
micky2 said,
February 5, 2008 at 11:22 am
Where are you Jersey ?
I ‘ll gladly retrieve some more of your elooquently well educated statements if you like.
micky2 said,
February 7, 2008 at 7:58 am
Well?
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February 7, 2008 at 11:29 am
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